Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Just John]

In the end, were all of the bottled bacteria good, just a couple were a little better, or were some of them poor performers?

 

[Msteven1]

@Msteven1 i just looked at your build thread and it looks like you used an old skimmer and return pump. If so that invalidates @brandon429 claim. Can you clear that up please.

the Original skimmer was never on a cycled tank. I bought it when I was running my Biocube29. I was in the process of putting an external sump in my basement and running an overflow on the biocube from first floor. I bought the Somatic skimmer and a 20 long in late summer of 2018. I ran plumbing, made a diy overflow, etc. I gave up on the project due to overflow not working.

So when I finished remodel of basement in 2019, I started the plan for the 40 Breeder and began the build last fall. The skimmer broke as I was setting up the system. The skimmer had been on the shelf for two years and never saw established tank water. I bought the Reef Octopus new.

The same goes for the return pump. It was too strong for 3 ft of head vs the 14 or so I had planned for. I never used it.

I hope that is clear enough.

 

[MnFish1]

Unfair example my lfs and the four others here over the years had plumbed systems


we are veering away from results and into counter predictions its going to mar up the thread. Make some links studying valid angles and just post the end result. MSteven’s post work remains as the first and so far only example at all here using reef tank ammonia testing in a cycling reef tank to verify any aspect of the unassisted cycle. At least some ability and a timeframe resulted. Make better experiments and post outcomes.

Actually - it is my opinion the the examples are poor and do not explain what you're trying to explain. The key - you have to define what 'cycled' means. I think I've asked it 15 times. No one is trying to mar up the thread. I have done both of the experiments I talked to you about:

1. I had a tank with new dry rock, sand, filter, all sterile and added a mated pair of clowns - and slowly added fish - perhaps once/every 6 weeks. But the pair of clowns on day 1. They did fine - they whole tank resulted in the tank shown in my build thread

2. I had a tank that had been Fallow for 6 months - for a number of reasons - and fish were added immediately with no problem (a full complement of fish)

3. I had a tank which I had set up - with the intend to add fish to - but could not due to a move - It was perhaps set up for about 2.5 (not 3 months) - I added fish - from another tank - no possibility of disease - and within 3-4 days they were sick - breathing heavy (resolved with prime). I added bacteria - the tank did fine for 10+ years until we moved 2000 miles away.

So - After 40+ years of doing this - I can give you plenty of examples - and as a microbiologist - I can hopefully advise you when your science and studies to not prove what you say you're attempting to do. This does not mean I dont agree with the 'theory' - but the proof is not here.

 

[brandon429]

Just John this was my summary


Fritz wins lol out of the gate it carries instant bioload without any wait at all, provided the holdings were acceptable for the bac/refrigerated not expired etc
Fritz adhered to surfaces quickest of all if I’m not wrong: Dr. Reef did 100% water changes and retesting ammonia to prove that actually adhered bacteria were doing the workload vs bacteria floating in suspension, Fritz was immune to full water changes in a day or two max! Now that’s fast.

biospira scored well too

Dr. Tims bac too carries immediate bioload: nearly all fish in cycles we can search are using Dr. Tims plus fish on day one…my friend Jon Malkerson here tested it using a highly tuned seneye, and it handled ammonia with zero wait time just like Fritz did and Dr. Tims didn’t require refrigeration

i don’t have enough data or recollection on mb7 cycles or brightwell or atm colony compared to winners Fritz, biospira and Dr. Tims

I bet those are delineated here somewhere buried in the pages.

 

[MnFish1]

the Original skimmer was never on a cycled tank. I bought it when I was running my Biocube29. I was in the process of putting an external sump in my basement and running an overflow on the biocube from first floor. I bought the Somatic skimmer and a 20 long in late summer of 2018. I ran plumbing, made a diy overflow, etc. I gave up on the project due to overflow not working.

So when I finished remodel of basement in 2019, I started the plan for the 40 Breeder and began the build last fall. The skimmer broke as I was setting up the system. The skimmer had been on the shelf for two years and never saw established tank water. I bought the Reef Octopus new.

The same goes for the return pump. It was too strong for 3 ft of head vs the 14 or so I had planned for. I never used it.

I hope that is clear enough.

Its clear - and you're right - it is certainly unlikely that true nitrifies survived - but heterotrophs would have (or could have) - thus - its invalid, IMHO. An experiment is just that - it has defined starting points, and defined ending points. The impression given was that there was sterile equipment involved. This was not.

 

[MnFish1]

Just John this was my summary


Fritz wins lol out of the gate it carries instant bioload without any wait at all, provided the holdings were acceptable for the bac/refrigerated not expired etc


same for biospira

Dr. Tims bac too carries immediate bioload: nearly all fish in cycles we can search are using Dr. Tims plus fish on day one…my friend Jon Malkerson here tested it using a highly tuned seneye, and it handled ammonia with zero wait time just like Fritz did and Dr. Tims didn’t require refrigeration

i don’t have enough data or recollection on mb7 cycles or brightwell compared to winners Fritz, biospira and Dr. Tims

This is my addition to the heresy - we are all discussion.

I have started tanks with Stability (and a full fish load) - with just a HOB filter. Had no problem. I have started tanks with live sand - no problem. I have done lots of things - that I could use to prove or disprove any or many of the concepts here. BUT

My take home - Fritz works. Most bottled bacteria works with fish added - as the instructions state. If the bacteria in the bottle are heterotrophs - they give the tank time to develop the true autotrophic bacteria needed for 'a cycle'.

 

[brandon429]

Steven

your own hands during the build and setup vectored in heterotrophs like any common home arrangement will on a continual basis.


someone sneezes near your reef, heterotrophs get in.

a line of practicality has to be drawn… after all the way these filter bac get in is by direct physical transfer, the water itself is assumed to carry a large portion and nobody expects you to boil it, for example.

since you didn’t use wet bioslicks from a reef your experiment holds water



did you see what I did there


MN is going to perpetually press against the validity and we need that counter balance in reefing anyway, it’s a claims filter from someone who does science for a living. Without that, any old stated claim by anyone might take hold

your experiment meets my rigors though and kudos to Garf for catching that at all, lucky it panned out. You did an unassisted cycle that’s pretty rare, we had nine proofs for you to pass just to arrive back at the original congrats from page 97. When I say meets rigors, that means I think we could develop 25+ page work threads where everyone has the same outcome as you.

well done. Also your follow up, we had legit clarifying questions and you didn’t hesitate to clarify.

 

[MnFish1]

MN is going to perpetually press against the validity and we need that counter balance in reefing anyway, it’s a claims filter from someone who does science for a living.

I'm going to say this is 'unfair' but in reality its 'wrong'.

Science is based on a theory. Which is based on experiments to test the theory - that are carefully designed. Dr. Reefs study (which is this thread) - which is what we're discussing was carefully designed with multiple people weighing in on the possible issues with doing it one way or the other. The experiment was repeated with multiple controls and multiple replications.

The rest are not - comments dribble in - about - oh wait - yeah - maybe I did this or that. this is not a criticism of the people involved with these experiments. I'm sure Dr Reef was very frustrated when he was faced with doing multiple tanks with duplicate experiments, etc. etc. He did not blame the people asking the questions. He did the work. @brandon429. It seems to e you are taking this way too personally - it is not personal. If you are going to make bold claims - defend them. Its not up to the others to prove you wrong - its up to you to prove what you're saying is correct. And as I've already said - I think you are correct - just not with the evidence you've provided

 

[brandon429]

I was acknowledging you have a science based job and are fit to provide counter point in bac studies and in science experiments in general.


even if the critique is excessive lol it’s crucial as a spot check for claims made by anyone. Reef2reef provides this filter aspect very well by attracting and retaining diverse folks.

it was quite the cliffhanger awaiting Stevens input regarding the bioslicks and when it lucked to being a legit setup it was a savory stroke of luck. I’m too happy about that luck to take anything personal

Unless there’s other hidden details like what Garf caught this all amounted to something I believe we could repeat on demand, like we do in cycling threads


the problem is finding 25 pages of people patient enough in 2021 to wait three months to run a test…

 

[Just John]

Just John this was my summary


Fritz wins lol out of the gate it carries instant bioload without any wait at all, provided the holdings were acceptable for the bac/refrigerated not expired etc
Fritz adhered to surfaces quickest of all if I’m not wrong: Dr. Reef did 100% water changes and retesting ammonia to prove that actually adhered bacteria were doing the workload vs bacteria floating in suspension, Fritz was immune to full water changes in a day or two max! Now that’s fast.

biospira scored well too

Dr. Tims bac too carries immediate bioload: nearly all fish in cycles we can search are using Dr. Tims plus fish on day one…my friend Jon Malkerson here tested it using a highly tuned seneye, and it handled ammonia with zero wait time just like Fritz did and Dr. Tims didn’t require refrigeration

i don’t have enough data or recollection on mb7 cycles or brightwell or atm colony compared to winners Fritz, biospira and Dr. Tims

I bet those are delineated here somewhere buried in the pages.

Thanks, as always!

 

[Msteven1]

Steven

your own hands during the build and setup vectored in heterotrophs like any common home arrangement will on a continual basis.


someone sneezes near your reef, heterotrophs get in.

a line of practicality has to be drawn… after all the way these filter bac get in is by direct physical transfer, the water itself is assumed to carry a large portion and nobody expects you to boil it, for example.

since you didn’t use wet bioslicks from a reef your experiment holds water



did you see what I did there


MN is going to perpetually press against the validity and we need that counter balance in reefing anyway, it’s a claims filter from someone who does science for a living. Without that, any old stated claim by anyone might take hold

your experiment meets my rigors though and kudos to Garf for catching that at all, lucky it panned out. You did an unassisted cycle that’s pretty rare, we had nine proofs for you to pass just to arrive back at the original congrats from page 97. When I say meets rigors, that means I think we could develop 25+ page work threads where everyone has the same outcome as you.

well done.

I am envious of those of you that have such passion and knowledge. I’m a mechanical engineer that has spent my career in manufacturing. I have spent 35 years trying to reduce variation through tests a trials.
In my training, Variation comes from a set of known factors that can be measured at different levels, the possible interactions of those factors, and from the unknown factors we haven’t even contemplated.
I see many in this microbiology community that povide single factor analysis, and usually no more than the to 3rd order, and no true attempt at minimizing noise. I enjoyed reading through the experiments that were done prior to my entry into the thread.
I feel the passion of many of you and it excites me that my circumstances aligned with a discussion that allowed me to provide a bit of data, even without the ability to assign a confidence level to the results.
I have a whole new view of what is happening in my little glass rectangle. Thanks!

Time for another cocktail!;Happy;Happy

 

[Msteven1]

Now, can somebody tell me how to make these Chrysophytes disappear! Lol

 

[ClownSchool]

This stuff worked like a champ!

 

[Just John]

I am envious of those of you that have such passion and knowledge. I’m a mechanical engineer that has spent my career in manufacturing. I have spent 35 years trying to reduce variation through tests a trials.
In my training, Variation comes from a set of known factors that can be measured at different levels, the possible interactions of those factors, and from the unknown factors we haven’t even contemplated.
I see many in this microbiology community that povide single factor analysis, and usually no more than the to 3rd order, and no true attempt at minimizing noise. I enjoyed reading through the experiments that were done prior to my entry into the thread.
I feel the passion of many of you and it excites me that my circumstances aligned with a discussion that allowed me to provide a bit of data, even without the ability to assign a confidence level to the results.
I have a whole new view of what is happening in my little glass rectangle. Thanks!

Time for another cocktail!;Happy;Happy

You intelligent people are nice to have around! The ones who took the most difficult math classes in college, enjoyed homework and are able to spend hours toiling over a minute detail that produces a few numbers in the end that may have great significance, but you may be the only one to see that significance. I am honestly jealous of that type of dedication.

 

[MnFish1]

The ones who took the most difficult math classes in college, enjoyed homework

I guess I was one of those people - BUT - I NEVER enjoyed the homework (except I guess trigonometric proofs and organic chemistry).

 

[Msteven1]

I guess I was one of those people - BUT - I NEVER enjoyed the homework (except I guess trigonometric proofs and organic chemistry).

omg. Chem 101 was enough to make me as myself what the heck do I need this for!

 

[zeropauper]

Hi, was there any conclusion on whether the bottled bacteria helped tanks cycle quicker than a tank without such additions?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Yes.
Now that I am in business for selling Quarantined Fish (www.drreefsquarantinedfish.com) we do this qll the time.
If a tank is infected we bleach it and dry it and within a day we fill it back up and use Fritz turbostart 900 and add fish to tank.

 

[zeropauper]

Yes.
Now that I am in business for selling Quarantined Fish (www.drreefsquarantinedfish.com) we do this qll the time.
If a tank is infected we bleach it and dry it and within a day we fill it back up and use Fritz turbostart 900 and add fish to tank.

Ok, the reason why I am asking this is because a guy named David Bogert who has a certain website claiming to have over 350 articles on all aspects on aquarium keeping did an experiment to debunk bottled bacteria. His conclusion was that bottled bacteria is a commercial scam. He also claims that "no other person has done an experiment to prove otherwise", which is untrue considering that you did an experiment and came to a different conclusion. If possible could you point me to the comment that summarised this conclusion?

I have done quite an extensive (but not complete because I don't have time to read all 350 articles) debunk on his website including that experiment he did. What would you have to critique about his experimental methodology regarding the bottled bacteria experiment?

 

[polyppal]

Ok, the reason why I am asking this is because a guy named David Bogert who has a certain website claiming to have over 350 articles on all aspects on aquarium keeping did an experiment to debunk bottled bacteria. His conclusion was that bottled bacteria is a commercial scam.

I have done quite an extensive (but not complete because I don't have time to read all 350 articles) debunk on his website including that experiment he did. What would you have to critique about his experimental methodology regarding the bottled bacteria experiment?

Honestly I didn’t read that entire ‘thesis’ but I’d say he’s wrong, bottled bac (regardless of brand if it actually arrives to you alive) is extremely helpful in establishing a cycle, based on a decade or so of personal experience and dozens of experiences of other long time/successful reefkeeers.
I personally use Fritzyme 9. If people receive expired/frozen/overheated/dead bacteria though, I can see why they’d think it’s all crap.