Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[MnFish1]

Just for more information. I waited 5 min per instructions for the 24 hour picture.

here is color after waiting 20 minutes

Is there a a maximum time limit to API tests? Definite change in color, but still shows movement compared to yesterday.

The time is only valid at the time in the instructions

 

[brandon429]

# of times we needed to hear that in free ammonia alert posts: all of them lol

 

[Msteven1]

@Msteven1

Hey can you verify some things about your setup...we've been analyzing your build in hundreds of cycle study threads and I've forgotten the details we need to verify some aspects of your rock bring up/cycle

1. What kind of rocks? Just plain 'Dry rocks' like ordered from BRS?
2. I assume nothing else added to the tank (an old filter, sand, etc)
3.
4. How long did it take to get back to zero.
5. How big was the tank/how many pounds of rock?


we did learn that lighting was added to the setup

as far as I recall you dosed no bottle bac and no direct feed such as fish food, an old sponge (organics and slicks as feed) or liquid ammonia

from what I recall all your feed and bacteria came naturally into the system. I'm under the impression you documented a fully unassisted cycle from 1983.

@Msteven1

Hey can you verify some things about your setup...we've been analyzing your build in hundreds of cycle study threads and I've forgotten the details we need to verify some aspects of your rock bring up/cycle

1. What kind of rocks? Just plain 'Dry rocks' like ordered from BRS?
2. I assume nothing else added to the tank (an old filter, sand, etc)
3.
4. How long did it take to get back to zero.
5. How big was the tank/how many pounds of rock?


we did learn that lighting was added to the setup

as far as I recall you dosed no bottle bac and no direct feed such as fish food, an old sponge (organics and slicks as feed) or liquid ammonia

from what I recall all your feed and bacteria came naturally into the system. I'm under the impression you documented a fully unassisted cycle from 1983.

Hi Brandon
I used dry rock from BRS
I used dry Sand that I rinsed (purchased from BRS)
It took less than 48 hours to return to zero ammonia
40 gallon Breeder with 20 long sump
Approximately 40 lbs of rock, 30 sand
I didn’t add anything to the tank as I was just running the system until I was ready for fish. (Doing a rock cure in the tank instead of a Brute Can). I went back through my build thread and determined that I added rock, sand and water in the tank on 11/29/20. My post on 3/3/21 is when I started asking about fish to start a cycle.
It appears I found the bacteria in a bottle thread at this time, and we started experiments due to my unique situation at the time.

No lights at this time
I don’t understand 1983…..this took place last winter.

 

[brandon429]

Excellent summary of an unassisted cycle


what was meaning about back in the day is nearly all saltwater aquariums in the 80s were fish only setups and they did the same cycle prep you did…our hobby got away from unassisted wait cycling and into bottle bac cycling since then, most have not been told it was possible to make a cycle without paying for it.

 

[Vyper]

Fritz turbo start has been huge for me in a pinch. Can have a quarantine/hospital tank ready very quickly to take care of fish in trouble. I have 25 gallon cube with bio balls out of established aquarium with sponge filter and water from established aquarium and still had to do daily 50% water changes to keep ammonia down. Once fish went through treatment bought a observation 29 gallon tank, 40lbs live sand and 20lbs dry rock. Cycled with fritz turbo start and within 4 days had two tangs in it with seneye to monitor. Tank handled them beautifully from the start. Just do small water changes every two weeks until my main tank is done with its fallow period.
I am still new to using copper so maybe that is normal in quarantine to have to do large daily water changes but got old very quickly. I was hoping with established bio balls, sponge filter and water it would have been better. I intend to try the quarantine with fritz next time around and see if it doesn’t work better.

 

[MnFish1]

Hi Brandon
I used dry rock from BRS
I used dry Sand that I rinsed (purchased from BRS)
It took less than 48 hours to return to zero ammonia
40 gallon Breeder with 20 long sump
Approximately 40 lbs of rock, 30 sand
I didn’t add anything to the tank as I was just running the system until I was ready for fish. (Doing a rock cure in the tank instead of a Brute Can). I went back through my build thread and determined that I added rock, sand and water in the tank on 11/29/20. My post on 3/3/21 is when I started asking about fish to start a cycle.
It appears I found the bacteria in a bottle thread at this time, and we started experiments due to my unique situation at the time.

No lights at this time
I don’t understand 1983…..this took place last winter.

Yes - an unassisted cycle that took from 11/29 - 3/3 - at least - or 3+ months - and there is no proof that there was a completed cycle that I read even at that time? Again not criticizing you - just no clue what you're reporting - or the reason for the report.

I am totally comfortable - for example - adding fish to a tank - with nothing - except a dry rock - and waiting 3 months. Bacteria would allow me to add 10 fish.

 

[brandon429]

Did the specific color change using dosed ammonia and api not convince you, page 97, you’re having us repeat things clearly logged. These summaries were for you solely, nobody else was confused by the claims for unassisted cycling and you provided formal studies on the matter-issue resolved. Free cycling, unassisted cycling has some aquarium documentation now.


this is also proof that cycles cannot be starved by withholding feed, a common fear among forum peers.

 

[MnFish1]

Did the specific color change using dosed ammonia and api not convince you, page 97, you’re having us repeat things clearly logged. These summaries were for you solely, nobody else was confused by the claims for unassisted cycling and you provided formal studies on the matter-issue resolved. Free cycling, unassisted cycling has some aquarium documentation now.


this is also proof that cycles cannot be starved by withholding feed, a common fear among forum peers.

You weren't reading carefully - I said the unassisted 'cycle' took 3 months. We have all known that would/could happen. The question was 'so what' - I've also stated for you multiple times - why wait for 4 months to cycle a tank when you can do it nearly instantaneously - with no testing, etc. And - as I've also told you multiple times - I do not read the links you provide of 10's or 50's of pages to try to glean out a conclusion - that was expected before the attempt.

 

[Garf]

You weren't reading carefully - I said the unassisted 'cycle' took 3 months. We have all known that would/could happen. The question was 'so what' - I've also stated for you multiple times - why wait for 4 months to cycle a tank when you can do it nearly instantaneously - with no testing, etc. And - as I've also told you multiple times - I do not read the links you provide of 10's or 50's of pages to try to glean out a conclusion - that was expected before the attempt.

Brandon relies on the fact, nobody reads his links. If you were to do so (I’m autistic), lots of his links contradict his claims.

 

[brandon429]

No, it wasn’t common knowledge or more examples would exist before page 97


we discussed the option with Dr. Tim back on starting pages and nobody had any examples



*and with his clear summary we don’t have to handle feigned misunderstandings now right

If this was common knowledge they wouldn’t go for pages in the chemistry forum discussing starved cycles, don’t pretend that’s confusing as just last month you weren’t standing very clear in those threads either but they’re linkable.


this mini experiment from Steven shows that cycles can’t starve due to constant acquisition happening. that is not a common notion in reefing, start a poll if you feel differently. I claim most respondents are under the impression from peer training that if we don’t add food directly, a cycle can’t begin or stay locked in place. It’s why none of your forum examples on the matter from prior page were recent. MACNA videos haven’t discussed it nor laid out timelines, it’s new for us. You never posted a known completion timeframe on the matter before hopping in here, for something so well known.



I haven’t seen another common arrangement like this since you made it MSteven, based on MN’s writing Id expect to have ten more on file to inspect for patterns and timing. Yours is the last unassisted cycle we may see clearly on file for years. Let’s link the next one here when it occurs MN I’ll keep an eye out.

 

[MnFish1]

No, it wasn’t common knowledge or more examples would exist before page 97


we discussed the option with Dr. Tim back on starting pages and nobody had any examples



*and with his clear summary we don’t have to handle feigned misunderstandings now right

If this was common knowledge they wouldn’t go for pages in the chemistry forum discussing starved cycles, don’t pretend that’s confusing as just last month you weren’t standing very clear in those threads either but they’re linkable.


this mini experiment from Steven shows that cycles can’t starve due to constant acquisition happening. that is not a common notion in reefing, start a poll if you feel differently. I claim most respondents are under the impression from peer training that if we don’t add food directly, a cycle can’t begin or stay locked in place. It’s why none of your forum examples on the matter from prior page were recent. MACNA videos haven’t discussed it nor laid out timelines, it’s new for us. You never posted a known completion timeframe on the matter before hopping in here, for something so well known.



I haven’t seen another common arrangement like this since you made it MSteven, based on MN’s writing Id expect to have ten more on file to inspect for patterns and timing. Yours is the last unassisted cycle we may see clearly on file for years. Let’s link the next one here when it occurs MN I’ll keep an eye out.

No clue if you're answering me or someone else - but you missed my point. My point again was - Unassisted cycles (true or false) taking 3 months is a non-issue IMHO. My guess is that there are very few people that would think its not possible to add fish to a tank that has just 'sat there' for 3 months - as this one did. For decades, people simply added fish to an empty tank - and cycled that way.

The bottom line to me - is that if I can spend lets say $30 - on a bottle of bacteria, follow instructions, and add fish on day one - I dont care about someone who decides to do it over 3 months )or 2 months or 2 years.

But - I would like to see the thread - where a tank - is set up with dry rock, let sit for x period (you pick the time) - with no food added. Then add what would be a full complement of fish at 3 months. That is a thread that would interest me. Because I do not believe your fundamental premise that 'all of the surface area' in a tank will be covered with no added food over a period of 1-3 months. It does not make scientific sense.

 

[brandon429]

Steven shows the oxidation ability after the unassisted wait using common api documentation and raw ammonia. His cycle will carry the same degree of fish anyone has been using with bottled bacteria, or his ammonia pictures wouldn’t have changed after pic #2 in post #1938

if that motion isn’t enough for you to agree it can carry a bioload, yet no threads exist for any initial setup failing to carry the intended fish load, then we are stuck until a clean example of a failed start can be produced. The color change is good enough for me.

 

[MnFish1]

Steven shows the oxidation ability after the unassisted wait using common api documentation and raw ammonia. His cycle will carry the same degree of fish anyone has been using with bottled bacteria, or his ammonia pictures wouldn’t have changed after pic #2 in post #1938

if that motion isn’t enough for you to agree it can carry a bioload, yet no threads exist for any initial setup failing to carry the intended fish load, then we are stuck until a clean example of a failed start can be produced. The color change is good enough for me.

The key here is 'what is a bioload'? 2 clown fish? 1 damsel? 10 tangs? etc. I have no doubt that a 100 gallon tank - after 3 months - or even 1 day - can hold a pair of clown fish - with nothing Added. @Lasse has stated this is how he starts new tanks all the time.

I have seen no threads with an unassisted cycle - that have had someone take a basically sterile tank and filter, and after 3 months - without doing anything, add a 'full bioload' of fish successfully either. And the reason for the fact that you haven't seen any examples of a 'failed start' using a 'full bioload' is that most people would not be fearless enough to try.

Again - My point - whether it would or wouldn't work, why do we care? For the cost of having a boring tank sitting in a living room with rock doing an unassisted cycle (spending thousands of dollars for a large tank) - you can spend 30 -40 $ for bacteria in a bottle - which also has been clearly shown to 'work' from day 1.

I have struggled a bit to determine exactly the point of this (on multiple threads) is. If it is to show that there are 100 different ways (or more) to 'cycle' an aquarium - I agree. But - I would also say - that just like the word 'quarantine' - the word 'cycled' is used with so many different definitions - as to make the discussion almost a moot point.

Is cycled @Lasse's definition which he posted a while ago (the 'scientific one' based on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate testing with excellent equipment? Is it as you've implied 'when you can take a picture of the tank and there is no evidence of ammonia, and everything looks 'healthy'? Is it that you can add as many fish as you want - and they will never have an ammonia problem? etc etc etc.

 

[brandon429]

I agree we need a multiple fish test using fish it’s the only way to know the outcome. However many clownfish people add to a cycle after doing bottle bac if the unassisted model can’t carry them at month 3 then the formal study links you posted prior won’t apply now. you are back into doubting the unassisted cycle now, noted.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree we need a multiple fish test using fish it’s the only way to know the outcome. However many clownfish people add to a cycle after doing bottle bac if the unassisted model can’t carry them at month 3 then the formal study links you posted prior won’t apply now. you are back into doubting the unassisted cycle now, noted.

LOL - I never said that I was doubting anything. I said - there is no clear definition of what 'cycled' means. I'm not sure you're actually reading what I am writing:

1. I think you can add 2 clownfish into a 100 gallon tank and sterile rock - ON DAY 1, and they will live and be ok.
2. Likewise - if you add 2 clownfish into a 100 gallon tank after a 3 month wait - they will be ok.

Since some people's definition of 'cycled' is healthy fish in a tank - both tanks could be considered 'cycled'. And both were 'unassisted' cycled (i.e. the fish were added to the tank with no other additives).

I stand by the literature I posted before. I disagree as to your conclusions as to the importance of Steven's post. To me - it doesn't make sense to complain often about the complete inaccuracy of API tests then use an API test to prove this important of a point. Just my opinion

 

[brandon429]

No need to do 100 gallons, do a ten.

pack it with clean dry real reef rocks and some dry start sand.

let sit swirling for three more months, input two clowns, the bad karma is on me if they die I claim they won’t and that basic feed for them will be handled too, in clean non stinky water etc.


two clowns in a ten plus a few pellets a day is a substantial load test for natural feed natural bacteria input/contam

pack the rocks lol I get at least some tilt in favor and + surface area is what I select for $600 Alex. Pack the ten gallon in common rocks and I claim it’ll self cycle in three.

 

[MnFish1]

No need to do 100 gallons, do a ten.

pack it with clean dry real reef rocks and some dry start sand.

let sit swirling for three more months, input two clowns, the bad karma is on me if they die I claim they won’t and that basic feed for them will be handled too, in clean non stinky water etc.


two clowns in a ten plus a few pellets a day is a substantial load test for natural feed natural bacteria input/contam

pack the rocks lol I get at least some tilt in favor and + surface area is what I select for $600 Alex. Pack the ten gallon in common rocks and I claim it’ll self cycle in three.

I claim the same result with the clowns would happen in a 10 gallon tank - on day 1. I'm not sure why you would 'pack the tank' with reef rock. I would put in the amount of rock that is used for that size of tank.

But - lets use your method - and it gets to the definition of 'cycled'. Your comment - take a 10 gallon tank - put in reef rock - in 3 months its 'cycled' - by your definition. What if you put in a 10 clownfish - like the density seen in a fish store. Would they survive? Would that be cycled? What if you put in 15 clownfish at 3 months.

It is my position - with your 10 gallon example and nothing done for 3 months - assuming good oxygenation, etc. That adding 15 clownfish at 3 months woudl be a dismal failure. BUT - that if you added 2 clowns at 3 months 3 more at 4 months 5 more at 6 months and 5 more at 7 months would be much more likely to work.

 

[brandon429]

Unfair example my lfs and the four others here over the years had plumbed systems


we are veering away from results and into counter predictions its going to mar up the thread. Make some links studying valid angles and just post the end result. MSteven’s post work remains as the first and so far only example at all here using reef tank ammonia testing in a cycling reef tank to verify any aspect of the unassisted cycle. At least some ability and a timeframe resulted. Make better experiments and post outcomes.

 

[Garf]

@Msteven1 i just looked at your build thread and it looks like you used an old skimmer and return pump. If so that invalidates @brandon429 claim. Can you clear that up please.

 

[brandon429]

agreed if a slicked up skimmer literally running in another tank was moved here at the start it will be invalidating


return pump, dry vs wet same. Agreed on those potential confounds and nice spot.


thankfully lol the ardent umpires currently readily agree it’ll work anyway without those cheats, and that the instances for tracking are so common we don’t have to wait two more years to spot check another unassisted cycle. I’ll legit ask about those details next round, agreed it’s a dang good catch. We want to see an unassisted cycle, no bioslicks no sloughing off transmitting bac everywhere, from all dry to cycled and only common saltwater made up was the additive + time