Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Which bottle bacteria in your personal experience worked for you in a sterile tank.


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canadianeh

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What you guys think?

I am starting a new 25 gallons tank using dry marco rocks, live caribsea sands, and few live marinepure balls(from my established tank). I added 2 ppm Dr Tims ammonia on day 1 and instead of using Dr Tims one and only bacteria, I added Brightwell Microbacter start XLM bacteria that I have been keeping inside my fridge for at least a year. I have been following dr Tims instruction and so far I have 2 rounds of ammonia, but the ammonia have been showing 1.5 ppm for several days now after I added the last batch of ammonia. The ammonia never showed higher than 1.5 ppm. The ammonia salifert test kit expired in the month of April 2021.

I believe the ammonia salifert test kit is still okay to use?

Do you guys think my microbacter start xlm is no longer good to use for cycling due to age?

Should I get dr Tims one and only, or should I get Bio-spira for the next step?
 

brandon429

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How about this free option: leave your mix stewing for 30 days, change water, you’re cycled.

why didn’t we choose sixty days per page 98

because you’ve added boosters and the time for wait cuts down. A month will cycle your system just fine. Sooner actually, but as a default reference any cycling chart‘s ammonia line shows you why waiting a month on potentially slow cycling bac brands will work out fine.

if you want to reef today, you can easily see how adding six bucks of biospira will accomplish that. If you aren’t calibrating your ammonia test kits on clean water, in that actual tank, before and after dosing then whatever the kits read may not mean much at all. There’s no agreement even the stated levels above are actually what the ammonia is, no calibration tests read all over the place we can see in false stuck cycle help threads. Dr Reef took careful measures to benchmark his zero readings in the studies.

if I had to bet, your cycle is already done and you don’t have 1+ ppm free ammonia still, you merely have a test kit stating that level but seneye wouldn’t agree.
 
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ghost feed your tank fish food,
drop salinity to 1.015-18
raise alk to 11dkh

your tank will cycle in few days.
 

canadianeh

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How about this free option: leave your mix stewing for 30 days, change water, you’re cycled.

why didn’t we choose sixty days per page 98

because you’ve added boosters and the time for wait cuts down. A month will cycle your system just fine. Sooner actually, but as a default reference any cycling chart‘s ammonia line shows you why waiting a month on potentially slow cycling bac brands will work out fine.

if you want to reef today, you can easily see how adding six bucks of biospira will accomplish that. If you aren’t calibrating your ammonia test kits on clean water, in that actual tank, before and after dosing then whatever the kits read may not mean much at all. There’s no agreement even the stated levels above are actually what the ammonia is, no calibration tests read all over the place we can see in false stuck cycle help threads. Dr Reef took careful measures to benchmark his zero readings in the studies.

if I had to bet, your cycle is already done and you don’t have 1+ ppm free ammonia still, you merely have a test kit stating that level but seneye wouldn’t agree.
If I leave it stew for a month, do I need to ghost feed or add ammonia in a bottle from time to time?
ghost feed your tank fish food,
drop salinity to 1.015-18
raise alk to 11dkh

your tank will cycle in few days.
It seems more work than what Brandon has suggested above. I think I will rather just let it stew for a month.
 

Garf

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If I leave it stew for a month, do I need to ghost feed or add ammonia in a bottle from time to time?

It seems more work than what Brandon has suggested above. I think I will rather just let it stew for a month.
I wouldn’t add any more ammonia and check it in a few more days. Your live balls should propagate the good stuff through the system with plenty of circulation and surface area. No harm with putting a few fish flakes in though.
 

MnFish1

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ghost feed your tank fish food,
drop salinity to 1.015-18
raise alk to 11dkh

your tank will cycle in few days.
Curious - what is the rationale for raising the alkalinity and dropping the salinity? Why not just leave the tank at the parameters its going to run at?

Second, I do not think there is any need to have added any ammonia to this tank (from the start) - since you've already added live rock, etc. I would have added fish on day one with the other live rock, etc. 2 ppm is a lot of ammonia as compared to just adding a fish, and though 2 ppm is the correct 'direction' for Dr. Tim's it may not be that great for Brightwell - again IMHO. Good luck with your new tank. I agree with Dr. Reef and Brandon. If its not cycled already, it will be shortly.
 

canadianeh

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Second, I do not think there is any need to have added any ammonia to this tank (from the start) - since you've already added live rock, etc. I would have added fish on day one with the other live rock, etc. 2 ppm is a lot of ammonia as compared to just adding a fish, and though 2 ppm is the correct 'direction' for Dr. Tim's it may not be that great for Brightwell - again IMHO. Good luck with your new tank. I agree with Dr. Reef and Brandon. If its not cycled already, it will be shortly.
There is no live rock. Only 3 marine pure balls from established tank and live sands in bag.
 

MnFish1

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There is no live rock. Only 3 marine pure balls from established tank and live sands in bag.
I guess it depends on how much sand. But its a small tank. PS - I disagree slightly with Brandon, given what you just said. It could very well be possible that your ammonia is still at 1 ppm. I would also spread out the sand. Why in a bag? One thing (IMHO) that bacteria need is 'oxygen', and keeping the sand in a bag (again - no idea how big the bag is, etc - may be creating more of a low-oxygen situation (unless its in a direct area of water flow - like a filter (same with the balls).
 

canadianeh

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I guess it depends on how much sand. But its a small tank. PS - I disagree slightly with Brandon, given what you just said. It could very well be possible that your ammonia is still at 1 ppm. I would also spread out the sand. Why in a bag? One thing (IMHO) that bacteria need is 'oxygen', and keeping the sand in a bag (again - no idea how big the bag is, etc - may be creating more of a low-oxygen situation (unless its in a direct area of water flow - like a filter (same with the balls).
Sand in a bag means that I bought those ones from store that marked as live sand. In my case I am using Caribsea bimini pink and Special grade ones. Two bags in total so 40 lbs of sands. My new tank is 25 gallons lagoon.
 

MnFish1

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Sand in a bag means that I bought those ones from store that marked as live sand. In my case I am using Caribsea bimini pink and Special grade ones. Two bags in total so 40 lbs of sands. My new tank is 25 gallons lagoon.
To ME that should be more than plenty (assuming the sand was not expired, etc).
 

MnFish1

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PS, IMHO, if you are going to follow a method, I would trust that method. I am not in the camp of 'if the ammonia reads 1ppm, ignore it', because most of the time the kits are accurate IF you follow directions exactly. While I would not be particularly worried if the ammonia was between 0 and .25, I would not ignore a level of 1ppm. Instead, I would re-examine my testing method, perhaps buy a new kit and verify it (or take your water into an LFS). Especially if you set it up to 2 ppm - and tested it and it read 2 ppm.

PPS, I'm not a big fan of 'live sand'. I'm not exactly sure how they are keeping bacteria that require oxygen alive in a sealed plastic bag (unless they are not true nitrifying bacteria)
 

canadianeh

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PS, IMHO, if you are going to follow a method, I would trust that method. I am not in the camp of 'if the ammonia reads 1ppm, ignore it', because most of the time the kits are accurate IF you follow directions exactly. While I would not be particularly worried if the ammonia was between 0 and .25, I would not ignore a level of 1ppm. Instead, I would re-examine my testing method, perhaps buy a new kit and verify it (or take your water into an LFS). Especially if you set it up to 2 ppm - and tested it and it read 2 ppm.

PPS, I'm not a big fan of 'live sand'. I'm not exactly sure how they are keeping bacteria that require oxygen alive in a sealed plastic bag (unless they are not true nitrifying bacteria)
I think I will continue to test every few days or so to see the progress of the ammonia. I will bring water sample to LFS when they re-open. It is locked down here in Ontario.
 
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Dr. Reef

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Curious - what is the rationale for raising the alkalinity and dropping the salinity? Why not just leave the tank at the parameters its going to run at?

Bacteria will deplete alkalinity as they are growing and multiplying so always watch the alk and pH. Dropping salinity will speed up the rate of growth. these bottle bac do much better and establish faster in brackish water than full strength saltwater.
Adding food gives them carbon source that might be missing in an empty/lifeless tank.
 

ying yang

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No expert as very new to saltwater side of hobby so just done lots research is only.with live sand in a bag,i have read that the bags are breathable so let some oxygen in them but dont let the water out of something like this.and this video from doctor tim at 1.45 onwards he explains that bacteria stay dormant in the bottle and they dont have lungs so dont need to breathe.they only need oxygen when converting amnonia and doing their thing etc.,so with live sand i guess could be same principle,but im
No microbe expert so only know what videos i watched and what articles/ research i have read.

 

ying yang

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Imo a great 35 minutes worth of my time to understand some basics on cycling.and/ or good for any newbies about to start a tank.
He explains how to speed process up by lowering the salinity so the bacteria dobt have to fight osmatic pressure as much so can work faster/ quicker.raising temperature as they prefer it hotter plus many other good information.if making changes like salinity or temp.once cycled lower or higher slowly over few days back to right measurements.etc.
If want to know some tips/ tricks and got spare 35 minutes then i suggest watch this video ^_^
 

MnFish1

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Bacteria will deplete alkalinity as they are growing and multiplying so always watch the alk and pH. Dropping salinity will speed up the rate of growth. these bottle bac do much better and establish faster in brackish water than full strength saltwater.
Adding food gives them carbon source that might be missing in an empty/lifeless tank.
It was my impression (and you know better than I) that some of the bottled bacteria are heterotrophs (that need a carbon source), some are autotrophs that need Ammonia and Oxygen (fritz 9000 for example). Whereas I think some heterotrophs might do better in brackish water - whats the purpose of bumping them up significantly - only to dampen them when you re-up the salinity. I'm not sure that autotrophs do better in brackish water - or higher alkalinity (but yes - I agree I wouldn't want it to drop).
 

MnFish1

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No expert as very new to saltwater side of hobby so just done lots research is only.with live sand in a bag,i have read that the bags are breathable so let some oxygen in them but dont let the water out of something like this.and this video from doctor tim at 1.45 onwards he explains that bacteria stay dormant in the bottle and they dont have lungs so dont need to breathe.they only need oxygen when converting amnonia and doing their thing etc.,so with live sand i guess could be same principle,but im
No microbe expert so only know what videos i watched and what articles/ research i have read.


I think you're right - and I have no reason to doubt Dr. Tim. But - when you use his bacteria (at room temperature), I believe there is (should be) an expiration date. If you use a cold product, I believe there is a longer shelf life. But its definitely the case that nitrifiers can be dormant.
 

brandon429

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@Msteven1

question

did you shine lights on your unassisted cycle rock vat, needed to know. we are assessing plant loading ratios and degree of light helps, iirc you had only ambient room light. If I had to pick two threads / posts that influenced reefing the most in the last two years it’d be your posts on page 97 and Jon M’s seneye testing to proofs


how much light did your rocks get


the fact that a set of rocks given only water, and sixty days, produced the cycle like paying for bottle bac to do it quickly is a big deal. Nothing stalled, starved or went dormant it went upwardly active when water was added apparently. Fed by nature


same ends, different cost approach. It’s a big deal and will be part of the spinal cord that prevents the entire hobby from descending into pure retail purchase training for every bacterial whim. They’re on the verge of creating total dependency by never writing about what you found, free and consistent unassisted cycling.
 
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Sleepydoc

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the fact that a set of rocks given only water, and sixty days, produced the cycle like paying for bottle bac to do it quickly is a big deal. Nothing stalled, starved or went dormant it went upwardly active when water was added apparently. Fed by nature


same ends, different cost approach.
Not quite the same end - cycling without bottled bacteria has been around forever; the goal behind the bottle is to speed the process up so you don’t have to wait for the bacteria that happen to be around in nature to get their game on.
 

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