Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[hart24601]

There are factors that determine how quickly the nitrifiers settle in and begin colonizing the media/surfaces. Temperature is a big factor, so cooler systems (like in Aquaculture, Lobster Systems, cold water exhibits in public aquaria) take longer. Water quality, does the water contains the things the nitrifiers need (alk, phosphates, trace elements, etc.) and nothing inhibiting them (Copper, etc.). Other things like flow, dissolved oxygen, amount of suitable media, etc. No two systems are exactly the same.

I am curious, and again more just to file under *this is interesting for me* if aside from temperature since most of us don’t deal with cold water systems, if the water quality and parameters such as DO and media, while undoubtedly having an impact, have such an impact a hobbiest would find it meaningful when it comes to attachment times. Is it a 5x longer process to attach if one doesn’t have ceramic media or just a few hours for example. Now those sorts of questions are more in depth to test and are really out of scope for this, but interesting to me at least. Even attachment time to ceramic, vs calcium carbonate (live rock) vs glass are going to be different, but are they different enough to have a meaningful impact, such has hours vs days.

 

[mikeyn]

I don't thin

I am curious, and again more just to file under *this is interesting for me* if aside from temperature since most of us don’t deal with cold water systems, if the water quality and parameters such as DO and media, while undoubtedly having an impact, have such an impact a hobbiest would find it meaningful when it comes to attachment times. Is it a 5x longer process to attach if one doesn’t have ceramic media or just a few hours for example. Now those sorts of questions are more in depth to test and are really out of scope for this, but interesting to me at least. Even attachment time to ceramic, vs calcium carbonate (live rock) vs glass are going to be different, but are they different enough to have a meaningful impact, such has hours vs days.

As a rule of thumb we tell customers to leave off skimmers and UV sterilizers for 5 days after introduction to allow the bacteria to fall out of the water column and begin colonizing. We've never done any testing on types of media or speed of colonization, five days appears to be worse case.

 

[MnFish1]

I am curious, and again more just to file under *this is interesting for me* if aside from temperature since most of us don’t deal with cold water systems, if the water quality and parameters such as DO and media, while undoubtedly having an impact, have such an impact a hobbiest would find it meaningful when it comes to attachment times. Is it a 5x longer process to attach if one doesn’t have ceramic media or just a few hours for example. Now those sorts of questions are more in depth to test and are really out of scope for this, but interesting to me at least. Even attachment time to ceramic, vs calcium carbonate (live rock) vs glass are going to be different, but are they different enough to have a meaningful impact, such has hours vs days.

Sorry - to me the question doesnt make sense. What is 'DO'. Who was talking about ceramic media? Who said there was a difference between attaching to ceramic vs glass or rock? It may be that I just dont understand the question

 

[MnFish1]

I don't thin


As a rule of thumb we tell customers to leave off skimmers and UV sterilizers for 5 days after introduction to allow the bacteria to fall out of the water column and begin colonizing. We've never done any testing on types of media or speed of colonization, five days appears to be worse case.

Its interesting that a company that sells bacteria hasn't tested these things frankly.... The UV I Understand in any case. But why wouldn't you have tested this - (not a slam - just a question)?

 

[hart24601]

Sorry - to me the question doesnt make sense. What is 'DO'. Who was talking about ceramic media? Who said there was a difference between attaching to ceramic vs glass or rock? It may be that I just dont understand the question

I was abbreviating dissolved oxygen.

I am talking about attachment to various substances, no one else was. It was an expansion from my previous post about being curious of becterial adhesion times and an illustration of complexity with that question.

 

[MnFish1]

I was abbreviating dissolved oxygen.

I am talking about attachment to various substances, no one else was. It was an expansion from my previous post about being curious of becterial adhesion times and an illustration of complexity with that question.

OK - why would you think there was a difference?

 

[hart24601]

OK - why would you think there was a difference?

Surface area, EPS (extracellular polymeric substances) being able to adhear to those surfaces and creation of biofilms at different rates, surface profiles along with surface areas - such as pockets providing nutrient gradient areas or protection shearing forces like flow. That sort of thing.

 

[MnFish1]

Surface area, EPS (extracellular polymeric substances) being able to adhear to those surfaces and creation of biofilms at different rates, surface profiles along with surface areas - such as pockets providing nutrient gradient areas or protection shearing forces like flow. That sort of thing.

Curious - how would you prove/disprove that any variation of the above would have an effect without many many tanks/experiments - I mean trying to cover all of the variables you mentioned would take years...

 

[Dr. Reef]

Update:
All 6 tanks are bleached today. I have replacement media and sand (dry) ready to go. I will run bleach today and take out the water run tap water tomorrow with dechlorinator and 2 days from today they will be ready to go for round 2.
I am going to run round 2 same way as round 1 and if after 5 days i dont see reduction in the bottles i noticed no reduction before i will add 15 pellets of fish food again to see if that helps and if it does it further confirms my theory of heterotorph bacteria.
From all the testing done so far. I am pretty confident to say TurboStart 900 (cold) will cycle withing 2-3 days.
As per @brandon429 suggestion after 3rd day it cycles i will empty the tank (water only) and replace it with new saltwater and dose 1 ppm ammonia again and watch for reduction.
On the side study, the bottle of turbo start 900 that was left out at room temp is about 1 month old at room temp and should be interesting to see what effects it has on cycling ammonia.
A lot to learn and observe and a lot to do on this study so be patient and stay tuned.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Also i need help designing study, How copper effects the bacteria. I am not sure how to test this. I need ideas please.

 

[cromag27]

Also i need help designing study, How copper effects the bacteria. I am not sure how to test this. I need ideas please.

before gettting crazy i would suggest doing what i sent you in pm. follow bottles exactly. test for results. this is how the least sophisticated consumer would use the products.

 

[MnFish1]

before gettting crazy i would suggest doing what i sent you in pm. follow bottles exactly. test for results. this is how the least sophisticated consumer would use the products.

I'm not sure the copper thing is that important - but - I agree with @cromag27 use the instructions with the products. ie.

1 tank - water/filter/salt/bacteria/ammonia
1 tank water/filter/salt/bacteria/(copper dosed to daily dose levels with copper test kit)/ammonia
1 tank water/filter/salt no bacteria/ammonia
1 tank water/filter/salt/no bacteria/no ammonia

 

[RamsReef]

Ok everything is setup in garage.
All 6 tanks on the floor plus the control above the apex on counter away from test subjects.
Waiting for ceramic rings to arrive. FedEx shows delivery tomorrow.
Apex is setup, Ato is ready and tested.
Heaters are in and starting tomorrow I'll start running them all and hopefully day after study can begin.

HOLY TOLITO

 

[RamsReef]

Just as an FYI - its never a good idea to directly 'smell' bacteria. But - you can use your hand and waft it over the top of the bottle so you can smell any odor.

RIP @Dr. Reef :O

 

[Dr. Reef]

I know right he had me worried for few days. But I am still here

 

[cromag27]

I know right he had me worried for few days. But I am still here

nah you’re fine. i inhale acrylic solvent fumes everyday and haven’t noticed any nebehahyivve sidenn sdfccets.......

 

[mikeyn]

Its interesting that a company that sells bacteria hasn't tested these things frankly.... The UV I Understand in any case. But why wouldn't you have tested this - (not a slam - just a question)?

I never said it wasn't tested, we cant test for every scenario. We found that in the majority of scenarios our the bacteria is out of the water column within 5 days, colonizing media and working to oxidize ammonia/nitrite.
There are studies showing what types of media work best, the more surface are on the media the better.

 

[Dr. Reef]

In my studies that I have already conducted, Fritz Turbostart 900 has always cycled my 5 gal tank in 3 days, which tells me that bacteria was probably out of water column within first 24 hrs as it would take 15-18 hrs for initial bacteria dose to double its numbers and start oxidizing till 48 hrs later it can completely consume 1 ppm or 2 ppm and in fact even 8 ppm within 3 days to 0.

I have a few ways to do this like @brandon429 wants.
These 3 will be 3 separate studies.

1. Day 1 dose ammonia and bacteria , cycle 3 days later, do 100% water change and redose ammonia.

2. Day 1 dose ammonia and bacteria, day 2 do 100% water change and redose ammonia.

3. Day 1 dose ammonia and bacteria, 24 hrs do 100% water change and redose ammonia.

From doing 100% water change on day 1, day 2 and day 3 on 3 separate studies can narrow it down to when the bacteria fell off the water column.

 

[hart24601]

Curious - how would you prove/disprove that any variation of the above would have an effect without many many tanks/experiments - I mean trying to cover all of the variables you mentioned would take years...

And again I don’t think it’s worth the time for anyone to do this, but something I would find interesting. Now clearly being able to make those sort of differentiations just isn’t going to be possible, so in a hobby sort of study, if I was doing this, I would ask myself what I would consider a “good” outcome for looking at attachment which I think would be seeing some sort of ammonia reduction x amount of days after inoculation and then removal of water and retesting. This would be a more phenotypic observation type of experiment. I would then also hope to examine various “media” conditions to see if there was an impact.

I would have maybe 5-6 tanks, one control (ideally have a control for each media), one bare, one with pot scrubbers (higher surface area, not porous), ceramic media, live rock and maybe one with a cup of sand. Ideally the weight of the media would be the same. I would then use the most successful product, dose 1ppm – until removed continue doing this for x number of days, do a 100% W/C, refill and dose the smallest amount of ammonia the test kit detects (.25ppm?) and look for reduction. Look at w/c after 3, 4, 5, 6 days for example. This might be done best as a 2 part experiment with just the empty tank being examined 1st for some sort of time frame. Once could also do a variation where the ‘media’ is dunked in new sw as well to see if flushing dislodges the bacteria. It might also be needed to adjust the w/c percent.

You of course will not be able to determine specifics attachment specifics, but ideally you could see some trends. It is also very possible one might determine the bacteria doses take a very long time to adhere which could lend credibility that products are more a stop gap to the otherwise slow colonization we normally see.

 

[hart24601]

Ah I see Dr. Reef came up with a pretty similar idea. Great minds...

This will be interesting to see!