Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[cracker]

Thanks Brew, For reading this ! when I got to this
Comparative Analysis of Nitrifying Bacteria Associated with Freshwater and Marine Aquaria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology Vol. 62, No. 8: 2888-2896. Hovanec, T. A. and E. F. DeLong. 1996.
I gave up !

 

[DrTim]

Perhaps my choice of dialogue could have been, well, softer.

I was not implying that it was purely the added bacteria that resulted in my success. But I am quite confident that a cycle in 3 weeks on a brand new tank is not a typical result without some serious help to control spikes.

The first week I dosed 34mL a day. 17mL in the a.m., 17mL p.m.
Week 2 I added hermit, snails, and the crab and dropped to 25mL a day.
Week 3 I had a full cycle and added what I call cockroaches of the sea. (Hearty and tough to kill)
A juvenile damsel. Dosing 10mL twice a day.
Mini cycle successful again.
At this point I went down to 7mL a day and added my 2 clowns.
When that mini cycle took place I was done and stopped treatment. 1 month after starting I had a bio load and no spikes.

Over the next 2 months I simply dropped 30mL of stability each time I added a new fish. 1 at a time of course. And never once got to dangerous nitrogen cycle levels at all.

And I didnt know any better, so I was only doing 10% water changes every 3 weeks thru all of this. I did 1 big (40%) one after my first cycle to stay ahead of nitrates.

I know every situation is different... but I truly believe (though I cannot prove) that I could not have achieved these results as fast as I did without dosing the bacteria.

I chose 2 different brands to keep the bacteria diverse and not overpopulated 1 general strain.

Following this thread. Very nice article and write up. Glad to have this topic up and buzzing.

No worries - as I said if your happy all is good!

 

[DrTim]

@DrTim Thanks for stopping by and answering some questions. Appreciate it!

My pleasure

 

[DrTim]

Ok, GREAT idea! I haven't read all 7 pages, so please forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, but.....

Both Dr Tim's and Bio Spira WILL knock out that 1.5 ppm ammonia fast, then if the tank doesn't have waste breakdown, the bacteria will starve and die off. I have used both products multiple times. Working in a LFS for 3 years, I sold I don't know how much Bio Spira, but it was a lot - to pretty much every new set up and to many people dealing with crashes and ammonia spikes. It always worked. I have used it myself on multiple new setups and also used it whenever I moved my systems (which as a renter has been more moves than I would have liked) and I have had ZERO losses in fish using this practice.

But my big concern here is the methodology. When we recommend cycling with live bacteria, we also recommend putting a fish or 2 (for larger tanks) in the system so there is something in there peeing and pooping for the bacteria to feed on as it colonizes and grows.

Is the purpose of the test just to see how long each method takes to bring ammonia and nitrite down to zero?

Just a few comments:

1) fish 'pee' ammonia (not urea) and they pee ammonia via their gills by passive diffusion,
2) the bacteria will not starve and die in any short period of time (days or weeks)
3) nitrifying bacteria do not colonize 'poop', heterotrophic bacteria do and since they multiple in 20 to 30 minutes (versus 20 to 30 hours for nitrifiers) they are mineralizing the poop into ammonia which the nitrifiers can then use.
4) using ammonia rather then fish is fine for cycling, there is not difference in ammonia you add via ammonium chloride or ammonia produced by mineralization of fish poop - ammonia is ammonia

Cheers

 

[MnFish1]

I'm assuming that bottled bacteria isn't purely bacteria - it also has other compounds, trace elements, etc in the liquid itself. To make all things equal, adding an 'inactive' form of the bottled bacteria would make it purely control (the only difference is whether the bacteria is alive or dead).

I'm going to tag @Randy Holmes-Farley so that we can get input from someone who's done serious research.

unless the boiling inactivates something. no test will be perfect... wait - he can irradiate the controls - but that may change the chemical composition of the liquid. The way he is doing it (seems to me) - means that whatever effect there is it is due to the bacteria.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Most of the nitrification and denitrification takes place in a biofilm which is a complex comunity, a mix of all kinds of bacteria and archaea which must work together. To build up this community time is needed minimum +- 20 days. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria are slow growers and Archaea need even a lot more time. Only +- 30% of a nitrifying biofilm growing on calcium carbonate is occupied performing nitrification and denitrification. Normally bacteria and archaea are introduced growing on and in everything what is introduced into the aquarium.
Do mixed bacteria in bottles contain Archaea?
Do these bottles contain all needed bacteria? Because they are all needed to form a balanced biofilm which is able to perform nitrification and denitrification continuously! Cells must be renewed and recycled. The nitrifying biofilm will not survive without sulphur bacteria present.

Favouring some trains of bacteria may prevent others to grow out normally as they are competitors for the same nutrients and building materials.

How autotropic nitrifiers survive in a bottle? They do not form spores. Most heterotropic nitrifiers which are active in the water column and are r-strategists do form spores. +- 1 million cells are needed to obtain the same nitrification capacity of one autotrophic nitrifier. And they need organics to grow.
Installing the necessary carrying capacity which is based on the capacity to reduce ammonia, on a balance between foto-autotrophic, autotrophic and heterotrophic ammonia reduction, needs time , time and patience which can not be provided in a bottle.

Of coarse one can add heterotrops from a bottle which are able to maintain the carrying capacity mainly by assimilation and continue to do so as long they are able to grow and are supplied organics. Such aquaria can support a certain bioload after a few days. As this would prevent nitrifying biofilms to develop, no autotrophic carying capacity will be installed. What if heterotropic growth is interrupted for some reason? This is not the way I would manage an aquarium system but it is certainly possible to maintain a VLNS or LNS this way.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

"Bacteria in a bottle" by Physics Professor Al Bartlett, U. Colorado

http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm

 

[Brew12]

Most of the nitrification and denitrification takes place in a biofilm which is a complex comunity, a mix of all kinds of bacteria and archaea which must work together. To build up this community time is needed minimum +- 20 days. Ammonia oxidizing bacteria are slow growers and Archaea need even a lot more time. Only +- 30% of a nitrifying biofilm growing on calcium carbonate is occupied performing nitrification and denitrification. Normally bacteria and archaea are introduced growing on and in everything what is introduced into the aquarium.
Do mixed bacteria in bottles contain Archaea?
Do these bottles contain all needed bacteria? Because they are all needed to form a balanced biofilm which is able to perform nitrification and denitrification continuously! Cells must be renewed and recycled. The nitrifying biofilm will not survive without sulphur bacteria present.

Favouring some trains of bacteria may prevent others to grow out normally as they are competitors for the same nutrients and building materials.

How autotropic nitrifiers survive in a bottle? They do not form spores. Most heterotropic nitrifiers which are active in the water column and are r-strategists do form spores. +- 1 million cells are needed to obtain the same nitrification capacity of one autotrophic nitrifier. And they need organics to grow.
Installing the necessary carrying capacity which is based on the capacity to reduce ammonia, on a balance between foto-autotrophic, autotrophic and heterotrophic ammonia reduction, needs time , time and patience which can not be provided in a bottle.

Of coarse one can add heterotrops from a bottle which are able to maintain the carrying capacity mainly by assimilation and continue to do so as long they are able to grow and are supplied organics. Such aquaria can support a certain bioload after a few days. As this would prevent nitrifying biofilms to develop, no autotrophic carying capacity will be installed. What if heterotropic growth is interrupted for some reason? This is not the way I would manage an aquarium system but it is certainly possible to maintain a VLNS or LNS this way.

I feel it is important to note that no one claims using a nitrifying bacteria product will create a fully mature system. The products only perform one task, and that is providing a large enough bacteria population to convert ammonia from fish into nitrate. This makes allows adding fish earlier in the process without risking damage to that fish. Achieving a mature and stable system with a diverse and properly functioning biofilm will still take time.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I feel it is important to note that no one claims using a nitrifying bacteria product will create a fully mature system. The products only perform one task, and that is providing a large enough bacteria population to convert ammonia from fish into nitrate. This makes allows adding fish earlier in the process without risking damage to that fish. Achieving a mature and stable system with a diverse and properly functioning biofilm will still take time.

How bacteria from a bottle will be able to do that? Nitrifying heterotrophs have a very low nitrifying capacity and most ammonia reduction will be due to assimilation, not by nitrification, if organics are available.
Are autotropic AOB , AOA and NOB able to survive in a bottle? And even if they can they will need weeks to grow. How those bacteria, which must be in there lag phase to have a chance to survive, will be able to compete with the active bacteria already present in the system? Autotropic nitrifiers and denitrifiers in lag phase may need a week to start up the log phase.

 

[Brew12]

Nitrifying heterotrophs have a very low nitrifying capacity and most ammonia reduction will be due to assimilation, not by nitrification, if organics are available.

In new systems, established with dry rock, there are very few organics available to process ammonia. That is the target user for products like these. If nitrification wasn't the primary method of ammonia reduction in these systems we would not see rising nitrites.
I do agree that assimilation by organics is much more likely to occur when available. I always encourage people starting a new system to add macro algae to help manage ammonia production. I even add macro algae into my quarantine systems when I start them up. I have yet to see a system with algae growth that isn't ready to handle at least a small fish load.

Are autotropic AOB , AOA and NOB able to survive in a bottle?

Yes, they can. Not indefinitely and not under adverse conditions, but they can survive.

And even if they can they will need weeks to grow.

Agreed. Depending on the "freshness" of the bottle it can take anywhere from a few days to several weeks before they can process meaningful amounts of ammonia.

How those bacteria, which must be in there lag phase to have a chance to survive, will be able to compete with the active bacteria already present in the system?

There is very little bacteria in these new systems established with dry rock for the nitrifying bacteria to compete with. The reason for adding a bottled bacteria product is to jump start the bacterial population. Of course, these systems also have very little in the way of resources to feed bacteria and competition is a real concern. Several members here have reached a limitation (I believe it is typically phosphorus) in tanks without rock and sand where nitrifying bacteria stopped processing ammonia after a month or two.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How bacteria from a bottle will be able to do that? Nitrifying heterotrophs have a very low nitrifying capacity and most ammonia reduction will be due to assimilation, not by nitrification, if organics are available.
Are autotropic AOB , AOA and NOB able to survive in a bottle? And even if they can they will need weeks to grow. How those bacteria, which must be in there lag phase to have a chance to survive, will be able to compete with the active bacteria already present in the system? Autotropic nitrifiers and denitrifiers in lag phase may need a week to start up the log phase.

I don't really follow the nature of the concern. Regardless of how fast nitrifiers grow, if you add a whole bunch of them intentionally, you will get to the goal far faster than if you wait for them to accumulate naturally from the air, etc..

The empirical evidence from MANY reefers is strong that these types of products can work to allow much more rapid nitrification in new reef tanks. It might be more useful to wonder how it happens, if that concerns you, than to suggest it can't for some complex reasoning relating to how you hypothesize these things should work.

 

[Dr. Reef]

UPDATE:

Prodibio just contacted me and are onboard to provide a sample for our experiment. i am still in process of communicating with them regarding many products they make. They want to know the nature of our test and what we want to accomplish so then they can recommend and send the best product.
Please dont forget to thank them.

 

[cracker]

This is off topic here but would like your OP.
We all want to increase bacteria levels for all kinds of reasons. For out competing algae etc. I need to do this in my "existing tanks."
I'm about to pick up a bottle Seachem Stability . Sound like a good choice?
I would think the bacteria we use for cycling a tank would have different bacteria in them, focusing more nitrtfication. )

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is off topic here but would like your OP.
We all want to increase bacteria levels for all kinds of reasons. For out competing algae etc. I need to do this in my "existing tanks."
I'm about to pick up a bottle Seachem Stability . Sound like a good choice?
I would think the bacteria we use for cycling a tank would have different bacteria in them, focusing more nitrtfication. )

What reason do you have for wanting to increase bacteria?

For many people with existing tanks, the increased bacteria are wanted for what they take up from the water to become "more bacteria" (N, P, etc.), not necessarily what they do after they have become "more bacteria".

I also wanted to increase bacteria by organic carbon dosing so the bacteria can become food for many higher organisms. While a product like Stability may be a fine, short term food, I personally wouldn't keep adding more bacteria when they are easy to grow in the tank.

IMO, the main situation where more/different bacteria are useful is if cyanobacteria (or something else) have become a dominant pest, and you are trying to outcompete them.

 

[Brew12]

IMO, the main situation where more/different bacteria are useful is if cyanobacteria (or something else) have become a dominant pest, and you are trying to outcompete them.

I've never understood this concept. Unlike nitrifying bacteria, most other bacteria in our systems have the ability to reproduce rapidly (which is why carbon dosing works). As long as you have "some" of these bacteria I don't see the benefit of adding more. My feeling on this is why I try to focus on setting conditions favorable to more desirable bacteria instead of adding them via a bottle.

Just to be clear... I feel it is important to introduce a wide variety of bacteria, only that adding more via a bottle doesn't accomplish much. I do like bringing in bacteria from other established tanks via rock or sludge.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've never understood this concept. Unlike nitrifying bacteria, most other bacteria in our systems have the ability to reproduce rapidly (which is why carbon dosing works). As long as you have "some" of these bacteria I don't see the benefit of adding more. My feeling on this is why I try to focus on setting conditions favorable to more desirable bacteria instead of adding them via a bottle.

Just to be clear... I feel it is important to introduce a wide variety of bacteria, only that adding more via a bottle doesn't accomplish much. I do like bringing in bacteria from other established tanks via rock or sludge.

In general, I agree.

But if you have a pest like cyano, and add a different species that may consume some of the same resources (organics, or example) then you might get less cyano. In a way, its like probiotics to keep desirable bacteria in the human GI tract if it becomes colonized with undesirable species.

 

[cracker]

IMO, the main situation where more/different bacteria are useful is if cyanobacteria (or something else) have become a dominant pest, and you are trying to outcompete them.

Thank You Gents, this is what I want to use it for,Cyano , diatoms & other algae's Also have been introducing live sand & "a little" mud from local waters here in Florida . Small amounts of course. I'm completely winging it here on the natural live sand. Anyway I have the seachem & will dose & see what happens !
Thanks to Dr Reef for the change of topic.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It is impossible to accelerate the autotropic nitrification capacity of a new system as the time needed to install an autotropic nitrifying capacity will not change much, even when the system is seeded. Nitrifying bacteria from a bottle.? it will probably be heterotrophs. Even fresh cultures will not change a thing. They will not grow faster because they come from a bottle; if this would be possible.
Autotropic nitrifiers do not form spores and they can not survive in a closed bottle while in log phase. The same fore heterotrophs. They will not survive in log phase longer than a few hours !
Heterotropic Bacteria which have formed endospores ( not all in aquaria living strains of heterotrops can form endospores) may survive but they need time to wake up. When the nutrients are present to wake them up I think the present active bacteria will already have started up there log phase and outcompete and outperform any added bacteria. So, why adding them?

There is no evidence that adding bacteria for nitrification to an aquarium changes a thing. A fact is that living cultures of nitrifiers in log phase can not survive in a closed bottle for a period of time. Not the period needed to commercialize it . When nutrients and building materials are added, who will tell it are the bacteria already present which are winning the battle or the once which are added?
These products have no added value for a new system and there is no necessity for these products at all. What will they be able to add what is not already there by introducing rock, sand . etc Putting new made water into a plastic bucket will develop a thriving bacteria community.

One is able to add heterotrops which are able to maintain the carrying capacity but these bacteria are already present the moment water is put in the plastic bucket which will provide organic carbohydrates. To maintain a heterotrophic carrying capacity only enough organics are needed.

Even when everything what is promised is in the bottle it is very unlikely those bacteria can compete with the active bacteria already present. The only thing one has to do to install the proper carrying capacity is adding the nutrients and building materials needed. These building materials may come from phytho- and zoo-plankton cultures. Seeding the new aquarium with fresh media from a biofilter will certainly help introducing diversity but it will not accelerate things in a remarkable way.

What is in the bottle? Take it to a lab and let it be examined for types and living strains of bacteria . Discussion closed. The rest is based on sensory experience or believe (empirical evidence), it is difficult to prove. There is nothing wrong by adding these bacterial supplements if it is known what is in it. One does support the business which in this case may be the most important issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is impossible to accelerate the autotropic nitrification capacity of a new system as the time needed to install an autotropic nitrifying capacity will not change much, even when the system is seeded.

You base that assertion on what?

I'm sorry, but some of these statements do not make sense to me.

You said

"Even fresh cultures will not change a thing. They will not grow faster because they come from a bottle; if this would be possible. "

Why wouldn't they?

You don't accept that adding large number of live nitrifying bacteria to a system will speed up the growth of populations of nitrifying bacteria, compared to a system that hopes some nitrifiers happen to land in the water from the air?

There are all kinds of studies in wastewater systems where seeding with nitrifying bacteria speeds up nitrification.

 

[BigJohnny]

These products have no added value for a new system and there is no necessity for these products at all.

I doubt you have ever used biospira or dr. Tims then, because if you had, you'd know they can work very quickly and well. Ime 2ppm ammonia converted in 24hrs 75% of the time out of the 15-20 times I've used it. Certainly there isn't a necessity but there definitely is value (especially in a pinch for qt or hospital). You can cycle a tank much faster.