Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[squampton]

Not the saltwater version, but I did use Fritz freshwater version, dumped a bottle into 40 gallons, put in 10 Zebra danios and, never had either ammonia or nitrite on any test I did in the first month, and no fish died, so seemed to have worked.

 

[bozo]

After a mishap that caused me to empty my tank and keep rock dry outdoors for 3 days, I restarted the cycle with the same rock on Monday.

I added 2 ml fritzzyme 900 again on Wednesday from a new bottle and 1.5 ml of ammonia into 23 gallons of saltwater to bring it to 3 PPm

Now I'm at 0.50 ppm on Friday 48 hours later.

I added another 2 ml of fritzzyme. Will check ammonia again tomorrow and then bring ammonia back up to 3-4 ppm

 

[bozo]

Ok so I brought my ammonia back to 8 ppm at 12 AM Sunday morning. 48 hours later, it’s now at 1 ppm.

What do you guys thing?

 

[bozo]

Ok so I brought my ammonia back to 8 ppm at 12 AM Sunday morning. 48 hours later, it’s now at 1 ppm.

What do you guys thing?

 

[bozo]

I took the ammonia back up to 4 ppm. 0 ppm in 28 hours.

Will check nitrite later

What do yall think now?

Cycled?

 

[cvrle1]

Thanks @Dr. Reef and everyone else who worked on this. It was really helpful. Since I just started with cycling dry rock in brute cans, I was going to use Fritz turbostart 900. Issue is that I cant find it in Canada

I believe that WWC uses Brightwell Microbacter7 but no idea how that one stacks up against Fritz turbostart 900. Microbacter7 I can find locally, so thats thy I was thinking about it.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@cvrle1
They all work, MB7 will work too. add ammonia to water and also pinch of fish food ever week or so.
This helps cycle faster along with lower salinity.

 

[cvrle1]

@cvrle1
They all work, MB7 will work too. add ammonia to water and also pinch of fish food ever week or so.
This helps cycle faster along with lower salinity.

Thanks again for help. I bought DrTim's Ammonium Chloride, so I will be dosing that to 2 ppm to start the cycle, and as needed. One final question (for now) Since my cycle will finish before tank is ready for rocks, will adding a pinch of fish food once a week be all I need to do to keep all bacteria alive, or should I do something else as well?

 

[Dr. Reef]

pinch of food once a week and make sure to keep parameters stable like temp and salinity, alkalinity is a key as bacteria will deplete alk.

 

[clark griswold]

I’m still going through this thread. But can someone recommend an easy longer term cycle option with Dr. Tim’s?

My new tank is all setup. I have a bottle of Dr. Tim’s. And a bottle of ammonia chloride if needed.

I’m going to be in town for two weeks then out of town the following 2 weeks so I won’t be around to test. I won’t be adding fish for at least 5 weeks. Probably more like 6-7 weeks.

Is there a set it and forget it means of cycling?

Something like this.

1) Add Dr. Tim’s dose ammonia chloride to 2ppm. Leave it for 5-6 weeks?

2) Add Dr. Tim’s, ghost feed daily with flake/pellet for a week or 2 leave it for 2-3 weeks?

3) Just throw some frozen shrimp and let it decay for 5-6 weeks. Add Dr. Tim’s when I add first fish?

I have time to burn and no rush to cycle fast. Curious if anyone had any input on best way to slow cycle that followed this thread.

Just don’t want waste a month+ of good cycling time. Thanks.

@Dr. Reef

 

[brandon429]

based on this thread, I dont see how adding dr tims bacteria plus a pinch of feed (for Carbon per your findings Dr Reef) and a few squirts ammonia could fail to cycle. let it swirl the whole time youre gone, come back, change water as much as you can, begin.

this whole thread has been about how the job is completed within a few days, per bottle bac brands, and can endure a full water change thereafter and still prove oxidation. for you to allow that which takes about 5 or 7 days max to adhere another double time, you'd be fully cycled upon return, not partially. I would also factor the 1500 fish-in cycles recently logged using clowns and dr tims, all on day one

no fish have died lol

 

[GainesvilleReef]

Leaving it alone for two weeks might actually be a good thing. I agree with adding a pinch of food for both carbon and phosphate. When you get back just start the process again. It will be further along so will probably not lose/waste any time.

Cycling is where our lack of patience really shows up.

 

[Dr. Reef]

You have plenty of time to cycle the tank.
I would dose the tank to 2ppm. Watch out for dose on Dr. Tim ammonium chloride, its off by long shot. Everytime i followed directions to get 2ppm, i got 8ppm.
Simply dose the tank to 2ppm and check for ammonia next day. After 24 if ammonia is 2ppm dose some bacteria or leave it as is and bacteria will start to colonize overtime as is.
If you use bacteria in bottle it should cycle within few days to a week if not then it will take weeks to cycle but eventually either way it will cycle.
no need to feed anything food or anything while you are away. Once you come back you can add a pinch or two of fish food every 3 to 4 days and watch for ammonia. If it stays 0 then your tank is cycled.

 

[Dr. Reef]

technically most all these products you can setup a tank dose bacteria and release a few small fish on day 1. Many have tried it and it has worked. I havent tried it in a study atmosphere.
I would love to and i showed interest and got a lot of push back about why hurt fish so i never carried on the study. For science and learning i think it will be beneficial if such a study is conducted and proven that these products can work for an instant tank.

 

[brandon429]

yes agreed we've got to test that final frontier with a seneye. Taricha and crew in the chem forum, going off various data, have set the arbitrary burn point at .02 ppm free ammonia

we think if bottle bac can't keep it below that, fish will be darting and dead / labored breathing soon

Im guessing by inference that since we dont see darting/any bad behavior in clownfish in the ten thousand fish-in cycles, that most all bottle bac strains must be keeping levels pretty darn low...tbd

I know of nobody in reefing who has tested that angle of fish-in cycling, with seneye of course for dead on accuracy.

by inference we think that at no time is .25 ever really being held in the presence of normal acting fish.

 

[clark griswold]

technically most all these products you can setup a tank dose bacteria and release a few small fish on day 1. Many have tried it and it has worked. I havent tried it in a study atmosphere.
I would love to and i showed interest and got a lot of push back about why hurt fish so i never carried on the study. For science and learning i think it will be beneficial if such a study is conducted and proven that these products can work for an instant tank.

Thanks for the input y’all.

That’s what I planned to do with this build dose Dr. Tim’s and just throw my clowns in there day one. I’m sure that would’ve worked but got kind of paranoid that my current fish weren’t QT’d and wanted QT everything on this build. Humblefish convinced my black molly testing my current fish is worth waiting.

Last tank I cycled I used BioSpira and just threw a cube of mysis in the tank once a week for 6 weeks and tested at the end and it was cycled.

I don’t know why but after I bought that ammonia chloride I’ve been really nervous to use it. Maybe I could just do the same in this build and have the same results ghost feeding with Dr. Tim’s.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Are you planning to condition the tank as an LNS or a HIHO mixed reef system? Planning to incorporate a bio-filter for easy management?
For cycling, one may add ammonia for increasing the AOB and AOA population but it is not needed, it will not speed up the NOB growth needed as these are ammonia sensitive and only start to grow when ammonia is not dominant anymore. AOB and AOA will start to produce NO2. NO2 will peak after 2-4 weeks. Nitrifiers grow slowly. If you add too much ammonia the nitrite production may become too high and slow down NOB growth as high nitrite is a poison, also for NOB. The more ammonia is added the longer it may take to cycle the tank and it's basic installed capacity may not be higher at the end as this depends on the building materials available and not only nitrogen. If you want to add ammonia, spread the planned dose over at least a week.
If you plan to bring in so-called "live rock" you certainly will not need ammonia additions as such rock may leak organics and ammonia for weeks or months. Bring in "live" rock after the brownish ( 2-3weeks) starts to clear up ( first cycle) and this will be more as enough for cycling the tank. You will need no other bacteria as present on the organic waste on and in the" live" rock, the tank will be cycled 2-3 weeks after the introduction of the rock.
Cycling a closed system is not the same as conditioning a closed system.
Once the tank has cycled, this means most different bacteria needed have been installed, and believe me, all different kinds of bacteria needed to install a nitrifying biofilm will not be delivered in a bottle, one may start conditioning the tank for the planned bio-load. Are you planning to bring in a lot off fish at once, ore big fish, or just " live" rock and some corals?
If one is planning to wait 5 to 6 weeks for cycling and 2-3 weeks for conditioning one will respect the time needed for proper cycling and conditioning. For conditioning one may add from the daily food of marine origin as planned for feeding. One may also introduce life food, rotifers, cyclops. They will graze the brownish and start a food chain, being part of the cleanup crew.
Planning a clean LNS with " live " rock you do not need to add anything as the rock will introduce enough colonized bio-waste to support an LNS.

 

[brandon429]

The scope of this thread was testing efficacy of bottle bac.


findings thanks to Dr. Reef: they all work. minor time variances between brands

follow directions on bottle won’t go wrong. Controlling ammonia means you can start reefing, it’s why thousands of fish in cycles are going fine ten years (disease control, another matter). Quarantine tanks and medical tanks aren’t subject to the same cycling controls a standard DT has with its rock and sand surface area. But from dt to dt, cycle dynamics are incredibly invariable much after two weeks, given a full water change before the assessment.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the input y’all.

That’s what I planned to do with this build dose Dr. Tim’s and just throw my clowns in there day one. I’m sure that would’ve worked but got kind of paranoid that my current fish weren’t QT’d and wanted QT everything on this build. Humblefish convinced my black molly testing my current fish is worth waiting.

Last tank I cycled I used BioSpira and just threw a cube of mysis in the tank once a week for 6 weeks and tested at the end and it was cycled.

I don’t know why but after I bought that ammonia chloride I’ve been really nervous to use it. Maybe I could just do the same in this build and have the same results ghost feeding with Dr. Tim’s.

just curious - is Dr. Tims recommended to use for 'fish' cycling? or just using the ammonia levels. If I were you I would consider using a product like Frtiz 9000 - as instructed - if you're planning to use fish. I have used this and the seachem product multiple times - with no fish losses - and immediate addition of fish. I will admit that I tend to use more than the dose on the bottle. One time I had to do this because my tank broke - and I ended up with a bunch of 'dead live rock' and fish swimming in an inch of water (several) - so I basically had to set up a tank with just water new rock and fish (I couldn't use the old rock) - had absolutely no problem using sachem - and I believe I also added I bag of 'live sand'. IMHO - its this '6 week cycling process' that markedly adds to algae production going forward. But - thats just 'my opinion/eperience'

 

[MnFish1]

Are you planning to condition the tank as an LNS or a HIHO mixed reef system? Planning to incorporate a bio-filter for easy management?
For cycling, one may add ammonia for increasing the AOB and AOA population but it is not needed, it will not speed up the NOB growth needed as these are ammonia sensitive and only start to grow when ammonia is not dominant anymore. AOB and AOA will start to produce NO2. NO2 will peak after 2-4 weeks. Nitrifiers grow slowly. If you add too much ammonia the nitrite production may become too high and slow down NOB growth as high nitrite is a poison, also for NOB. The more ammonia is added the longer it may take to cycle the tank and it's basic installed capacity may not be higher at the end as this depends on the building materials available and not only nitrogen. If you want to add ammonia, spread the planned dose over at least a week.
If you plan to bring in so-called "live rock" you certainly will not need ammonia additions as such rock may leak organics and ammonia for weeks or months. Bring in "live" rock after the brownish ( 2-3weeks) starts to clear up ( first cycle) and this will be more as enough for cycling the tank. You will need no other bacteria as present on the organic waste on and in the" live" rock, the tank will be cycled 2-3 weeks after the introduction of the rock.
Cycling a closed system is not the same as conditioning a closed system.
Once the tank has cycled, this means most different bacteria needed have been installed, and believe me, all different kinds of bacteria needed to install a nitrifying biofilm will not be delivered in a bottle, one may start conditioning the tank for the planned bio-load. Are you planning to bring in a lot off fish at once, ore big fish, or just " live" rock and some corals?
If one is planning to wait 5 to 6 weeks for cycling and 2-3 weeks for conditioning one will respect the time needed for proper cycling and conditioning. For conditioning one may add from the daily food of marine origin as planned for feeding. One may also introduce life food, rotifers, cyclops. They will graze the brownish and start a food chain, being part of the cleanup crew.
Planning a clean LNS with " live " rock you do not need to add anything as the rock will introduce enough colonized bio-waste to support an LNS.

I agree with alot of you say - especially the last sentence - but would you mind explaining the multiple abbreviations - that least Im not aware of - and can be interpreted in a number of ways? LNS? HIHO? NOB? AOB? AOA?