Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[DrewBrees713]

I personally think all the bottled bac products are snake oil. I’ve tried at least 5 diffrent brands by now and none of them work as advertised. Maybe they weren’t shipped, stored, handled properly. Maybe the strains weren’t potent or didnt have a long shelf life. Idk. Tried them all. BioSpira, Fitz, ATM, Vibrant, microlift, Dr tim and a couple others i forgot the names.
Even when they do work, the difference was very negligible and still time consuming. Not worth the money IMO.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I agree with alot of you say - especially the last sentence - but would you mind explaining the multiple abbreviations - that least Im not aware of - and can be interpreted in a number of ways? LNS? HIHO? NOB? AOB? AOA?

LNS Low Nutrient System HIHO High Input High Output NOB Nitrite Oxydizing Bacteria AOB Ammoia Oxydizing Bacteria AOA Ammonia Oxydizing Archaea

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I personally think all the bottled bac products are snake oil. I’ve tried at least 5 diffrent brands by now and none of them work as advertised. Maybe they weren’t shipped, stored, handled properly. Maybe the strains weren’t potent or didnt have a long shelf life. Idk. Tried them all. BioSpira, Fitz, ATM, Vibrant, microlift, Dr tim and a couple others i forgot the names.
Even when they do work, the difference was very negligible and still time consuming. Not worth the money IMO.

What were you expecting them to do that they did not?

 

[DrewBrees713]

What were you expecting them to do that they did not?

Pretty much everything they claimed.

 

[brandon429]

this might seem like a bottle bac debate thread but its really just 90 pages discussion findings from early pages.



Also tough to overlook: thousands of working fish- in cycles

Is it possible to add fish and a cuc and feed to an uncycled system and things still work out?

in the early pages of the work, Dr Reef gives a timeline he measured for each working bottle bac strain/how long it takes to be ready and immune to a full water change (can still oxidize re dosed water, after 100% change, proving bac on surfaces)
Dr Reef demonstrates calibrations for his tests, in pics before the work...thorough.

if you used non seneye, Ill be curious to see how you set up blanks before running the assessment after bottle bac, like what Dr Reef did

he used non seneye measures and has me 100% convinved bottle bac are legit. he carefully proofed his api in pics before each test, sold.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@DrewBrees713
I started this study because i used to think the same way. I used to think these products were snake oils and had no value to cycling.
I was proven wrong. Now i still believe that, in my opinion, there are just a couple of products that i can say have true nitrifying bacteria, rest rely of sludge removing bacteria that consume ammonia and keep it at bay and safe for fish to live till true nitrifying bacteria catches up and colonizes and out compete the sludge removers.
But ALL products i tested work. There is a key to it. Key is that most all of them except a couple i tested required carbon source. Thus further proving my suspicion that these bacteria are sludge removers which require carbon source. True nitrifying bacteria does not require carbon.
Only 3 that i can say without a doubt are fritz 900, dr tim one and only and bio spira.
Its best and faster to cycle if salinity is lowered and there is sand in tank and rock.
Also keep alkalinity up as it will be consumed.

 

[clark griswold]

just curious - is Dr. Tims recommended to use for 'fish' cycling? or just using the ammonia levels. If I were you I would consider using a product like Frtiz 9000 - as instructed - if you're planning to use fish. I have used this and the seachem product multiple times - with no fish losses - and immediate addition of fish. I will admit that I tend to use more than the dose on the bottle. One time I had to do this because my tank broke - and I ended up with a bunch of 'dead live rock' and fish swimming in an inch of water (several) - so I basically had to set up a tank with just water new rock and fish (I couldn't use the old rock) - had absolutely no problem using sachem - and I believe I also added I bag of 'live sand'. IMHO - its this '6 week cycling process' that markedly adds to algae production going forward. But - thats just 'my opinion/eperience'

From what I’ve read that is the main use for Dr. Tim’s is to instantly create a bio filter for a fish in cycle. Actually I think that’s what I’m going to do. I’ve been able to source two small fish I want that have been through QT. Gonna add the Dr. Tim’s then add the two fish within 24 hours and feed very lightly for the first two weeks. I have about 170 gallons of volume so I highly doubt 2 smaller fish could create enough ammonia that the Dr. Tim’s couldn’t handle.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed based on dilution


I’ve seen fish in cycling with dr Tim’s work at far higher fish to gallon ratios on threads in the new tank forum. That one isnt even meant for instant cycling but it still pulls it off.

 

[offtropic]

Isn't the fastest way to cycle low salinity (20ish ppt) and high temp (84ish F)? I think that would preclude a fish-in cycle (well, maybe a molly or something).

 

[MnFish1]

LNS Low Nutrient System HIHO High Input High Output NOB Nitrite Oxydizing Bacteria AOB Ammoia Oxydizing Bacteria AOA Ammonia Oxydizing Archaea

thanks

 

[Dr. Reef]

@offtropic
Temp does not play much roll in cycling as long as its within range. I tested that indirectly by cycling tanks in my study, some keeping them at 74-76F and some at 80-82F. All tanks cycled at same given days like previously reported.

Lowering salinity helps as the bacteria does not have to consume time and energy fighting heavier pressure and thicker salt content vs light less dense water. Best to cycle a little above brackish water. That's where alkalinity also comes into play.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I personally think all the bottled bac products are snake oil. I’ve tried at least 5 diffrent brands by now and none of them work as advertised. Maybe they weren’t shipped, stored, handled properly. Maybe the strains weren’t potent or didnt have a long shelf life. Idk. Tried them all. BioSpira, Fitz, ATM, Vibrant, microlift, Dr tim and a couple others i forgot the names.
Even when they do work, the difference was very negligible and still time consuming. Not worth the money IMO

What is in the bottle? What is the shelf live of AOB, AOA and NOB?
If the bottle only contains a mix of carbohydrate and for the purpose modified F2 media (building materials), those who expect something to change may be very happy with such an amazing product.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

@offtropic
Temp does not play much roll in cycling as long as its within range. I tested that indirectly by cycling tanks in my study, some keeping them at 74-76F and some at 80-82F. All tanks cycled at same given days like previously reported.

Lowering salinity helps as the bacteria does not have to consume time and energy fighting heavier pressure and thicker salt content vs light less dense water. Best to cycle a little above brackish water. That's where alkalinity also comes into play.

What would be the gain in cycling a closed system in different conditions as exploided. Salinity influences the installed clones of different bacteria, wich may explain different growth rates. If a biofilter is conditioned in brackish water one has to recondition it for seawater. A conditioned filter is a cycled filter, a cycled filter is not always conditioned for the porpose.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

QUOTE="Dr. Reef, post: 7592989, member: 26591"]
@offtropic
Temp does not play much roll in cycling as long as its within range. I tested that indirectly by cycling tanks in my study, some keeping them at 74-76F and some at 80-82F. All tanks cycled at same given days like previously reported.

Lowering salinity helps as the bacteria does not have to consume time and energy fighting heavier pressure and thicker salt content vs light less dense water. Best to cycle a little above brackish water. That's where alkalinity also comes into play.
[/QUOTE]
What would be the gain in cycling a closed system in different conditions as exploided?
Salinity influences the installed clones of different bacteria, wich may explain different growth rates. If a biofilter or system is conditioned in brackish water one has to recondition it for seawater. A conditioned system is a cycled system, a cycled system is not always conditioned for the porpose. Conditioning a tank or conditioning a biofilter is not the same because a bio-filter can be conditioned not only in function of the nitrogen import and ammonium reduction rate but also for the nitrogen export rate.
Temperature will for sure influence the growth rates, certainly of heterotrophs and remineralisation rates wich will influence ammonium production rates and reduction.
There is a big difference between cycling and conditioning a tank having a very low nitrogen import or cycling and conditioning , preparing a closed system for a high nutrient import as a very low import can be handled by bacteria in the water column which includes heteterotrophic nitrifiers , having a lilite capacity. For high import systems the system must be able to count on a reliable ammonium reduction rate based on nitrifying biofilms wich needs time to install and develop and for certain are not delivered in a bottle. There are a lot of propper aproved research papers published concerning the issue and about ZMAS. ( Zero emmission marine aquaculture systems)

 

[starbuck88]

Just read through this thread. Thank you @Dr. Reef for such a fantastic thread and such valuable information!

 

[Lasse]

True nitrifying bacteria does not require carbon.

Yes they do - they need carbon - a lot of carbon - but not organic carbon - instead inorganic carbon and they pick what they need from HCO3/CO3.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ichthyoid]

I would be curious to see what the ratio of pathogenic bacteria to nonpathogenic & nitrifying bacteria is, after adding a dead shrimp, or ghost feeding and allowing it to decay in an aquarium?

Having vibrio or listeria occurring at anything other than coincidental numbers, is not at all desirable, imo.

I will be using regular doses of commercial bacteria culture & yeasts as probiotics in my reef systems. Giving allelopathy a head start.

Also curious why ZEObak wasn’t included in the poll?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Yes they do - they need carbon - a lot of carbon - but not organic carbon - instead inorganic carbon and they pick what they need from HCO3/CO3.

Sincerely Lasse

You are absolutely right @Lasse , some of that information is not correct as i was still learning and posting. I have noticed that once carbon source is added bottle bacteria seems to cycle and colonize much faster compared to sterile tank with no carbon source.

 

[brandon429]

This thread has been valuable in predicting safe start times on file for about three hundred cycle threads, no fails. No fish acting burnt

Nice one DR

a reference for the ages. This thread was crucial in convincing the fella who had 3x bottles of fritz + 60 days wait + 20 pounds of cured purple coralline live rock no die off the whole time, that he could indeed begin safely.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I would be curious to see what the ratio of pathogenic bacteria to nonpathogenic & nitrifying bacteria is, after adding a dead shrimp, or ghost feeding and allowing it to decay in an aquarium?

Having vibrio or listeria occurring at anything other than coincidental numbers, is not at all desirable, imo.

I will be using regular doses of commercial bacteria culture & yeasts as probiotics in my reef systems. Giving allelopathy a head start.

Also curious why ZEObak wasn’t included in the poll?

I contacted many bacteria companies including someone sent me a sample all the way from Romania and Hong Kong and they were all tested and included, But there were a few companies that simply either never returned my email request for samples or flat out denied supplying so i left them out.
The only exception is ATM from the people on tv show TANKED, they never responded to my emails nor provided sample. It was a hot product due to their show and all the hype that i went ahead and bought it myself.