Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Clownfish_Boy]

Not a myth; my 60g was ready for the addition of two fish in a couple of days after treating with Fritz Turbo 900. It instantly establishes the necessary bacteria colony without the need for cycling the tank.

 

[JayinToronto]

No - the testing was merely the ability to remove ammonia. Several of the products did not work unless a carbon source was added as well. The Fritz products seemed to work with only ammonia added. (Maybe another one also) - suggesting it contained the common 'nitrifying bacteria'. The others seemed to require addition of a carbon source (like fish food) - suggesting more common bacteria that can also remove ammonia.

The Fritz products have a limited shelf life and are shipped 'cold' (because nitrifying bacteria will die if not stored properly) - the other products come off the shelf (and likely contained hardier bacteria)

Sorry, I'm not doing a very good job communicating here. I was just referencing a side conversation from the thread.

In one of the posts from Belgian Anthias he said, "What is in the bottle? Take it to a lab and let it be examined for types and living strains of bacteria"

This is what I was hoping to see the answer for somewhere in this thread in addition to the experiment.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry, I'm not doing a very good job communicating here. I was just referencing a side conversation from the thread.

In one of the posts from Belgian Anthias he said, "What is in the bottle? Take it to a lab and let it be examined for types and living strains of bacteria"

This is what I was hoping to see the answer for somewhere in this thread in addition to the experiment.

No as far as I know - there was nothing like that - I think at one time people talked about sending a sample to @AquaBiomics

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Sorry, I'm not doing a very good job communicating here. I was just referencing a side conversation from the thread.

In one of the posts from Belgian Anthias he said, "What is in the bottle? Take it to a lab and let it be examined for types and living strains of bacteria"

This is what I was hoping to see the answer for somewhere in this thread in addition to the experiment.

It is very unlikely active autotrophic nitrifiers are delivered in a closed bottle and if they were, in the water column they will be outcompeted. Heterotrophic aerobic nitrifiers/denitrifiers are very small and can grow very fast using ammonium as a nitrogen source but need organic carbon. Normally they do not play a significant role in the total nitrification capacity of a closed system.
Autotrophic nitrification mainly takes place there where aerobic remineralization takes place, nitrate is an endproduct of aerobic remineralization, autotrophic nitrifiers use the ammonia left over after normal remineralization and normally are active in the underlying layers of a biofilm as they do not like the light.

Nitrate is safely stored nitrogen.

Installing a basic carrying capacity can easily be done by installing the minimal photo-autotrophic growth needed and by maintaining the growth rate by active feeding of the algae in a refugium. One can install the capacity needed before the first animal is entered.

 

[MnFish1]

It is very unlikely active autotrophic nitrifiers are delivered in a closed bottle and if they were, in the water column they will be outcompeted. Heterotrophic aerobic nitrifiers/denitrifiers are very small and can grow very fast using ammonium as a nitrogen source but need organic carbon. Normally they do not play a significant role in the total nitrification capacity of a closed system.
Autotrophic nitrification mainly takes place there where aerobic remineralization takes place, nitrate is an endproduct of aerobic remineralization, autotrophic nitrifiers use the ammonia left over after normal remineralization and normally are active in the underlying layers of a biofilm as they do not like the light.

Nitrate is safely stored nitrogen.

Installing a basic carrying capacity can easily be done by installing the minimal photo-autotrophic growth needed and by maintaining the growth rate by active feeding of the algae in a refugium. One can install the capacity needed before the first animal is entered.

So then - (again) - you're accusing Fritz of intentionally misleading customers?

So picture this scenario:

1. Sterile bottle
2. Pure culture of nitrifying bacteria
3. Cold temperatures (bacteria do not die in the absence of ammonia - but merely stop growing)
4. They have a specific expiration date.

This would suggest that there would be no 'out competition' - and I'm not aware why this wouldn't work. Do you?

"About FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 Saltwater
FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 contains the same proven strains of effective, live nitrifying bacteria as FritzZyme® 9, but at 15 times the concentration. FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 reduces fish loss due to toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite.
Establishing colonies of nitrifying bacteria the without FritzZyme® can take weeks; FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 completely cycles aquariums in five days or less, allowing for safe, immediate addition of livestock. FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 may be added to new tanks or established systems any time the biofilter needs fortification including: after water changes, aggressive cleaning, adding new livestock, medicating or changing filter media."

 

[Dan_P]

Most all products recommend dosing bacteria and placing a few small fish in the tank. Which to me indicates instant cycle.
The way I tested these bacteria is not the method they recommend but infact my way of checking if done the normal way of cycling by placing ammonia and watching it drop to 0.
I have tested many of these products in the manner they recommend. I setup a tank, dose bacteria and place a pair of clowns or chromis in and monitoring with seneye,.never see increase in ammonia.

I found Bio Spira to be useless in establishing nitrite oxidation. Did I get a bad bottle?

Ammonia reduction occurred rapidly, starting within 2 hours of mixing the product with 1 ppm NH3 as ammonium chloride in Instant Ocean.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Answer to the above question is none of the above! https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.4319/lo.1959.4.2.0128

Even non "probiotic" reef salt if evaporated from the ocean contains more dormant bacteria than those bottles. Just another way for companies to sell products. I use 250ml of real north atlantic ocean water it cycles the tank established microfauna without any hitchikers thatll live in my warm reefbefore anyone says it yes the vast majority of the bacteria does.

 

[brandon429]

@Dan_P

What if this is the mode at work (may not be, but might account for your finding)

Bottled bac added carries intended bioload initially and then nitrite control works out long after when natural mechanisms had time to take hold. I would only claim a bad bottle if the original bioload couldn't be carried. An anemone was being supported long before we'd expect nitrite control for Ike:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

I truly bet that nitrite control came long after his fish and corals were in full working mode

Belgian Anthias knows that if Ike set up all that life without the bottled bacteria in a dry start setup, the whole system would die in five hours. It's alive today / year / solely due to bottle bac.

 

[MnFish1]

Answer to the above question is none of the above! https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.4319/lo.1959.4.2.0128

Even non "probiotic" reef salt if evaporated from the ocean contains more dormant bacteria than those bottles. Just another way for companies to sell products. I use 250ml of real north atlantic ocean water it cycles the tank established microfauna without any hitchikers thatll live in my warm reefbefore anyone says it yes the vast majority of the bacteria does.

Aren't you paying anyway ? I mean for the evaporated salt? And - if you live near the North Atlantic (or an ocean) great - most people on this site don't. Right?

 

[brandon429]

Skip cycling using ocean water alone as the carrier/vector hasn't been logged on a web post before, its legit uncharted.

Is it as strong as already known bottle bac, can prevent nh3 as fast vs selected strains? tbd

if so, million dollar industry. fiji water but for the reef.

 

[MnFish1]

Skip cycling using ocean water alone as the carrier/vector hasn't been logged on a web post before, its legit uncharted.

Is it as strong as already known bottle bac, can prevent nh3 as fast vs selected strains? tbd

I do not see how or why using 250 cc of ocean water would cycle a tank 'quickly' (i.e. the same as bottled bacteria). Though there are certainly nitrifying bacteria in the water - its in no where the concentration required to instantly cycle a tank. Now - if you took a jar of sand from the ocean - maybe. When I say using bottled bacteria in a tank I'm talking put water in tank - start filter - put bacteria in tank - several hours later put a nearly full complement of fish in the tank - with no problems.

 

[brandon429]

If had to bet I would say bottled bac from any strain here would win, they've been using scientists to concentrate on nh3 alone using decades of tech

I do trust them in the ability to bottle that ability. keeping bacteria out of a liquid suspension is what's impressive.

Undoubtedly seawater will some some kick, we found enough cycling bacteria transported in tank water alone in this thread to cycle a totally dry system, but it took 20 days it wasn't skip cycle ready.

then again, we only tested it at day 20

the mystery remains.

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

the only way this question will ever be answered is with a seneye, a five gallon paint buck of dry marco rocks and totally dry sand at the bottom, heated and swirled, filled w seawater. two clowns, daily feed, let's see day five nh3 charting off seneye already known to run in the thousandths on a reef tank before using it here. Dr Tim's bac pulls that off eight times a day at nano-reef.com alone, meaning the fish never exhibit signs of harm and do just fine.

and then die of crypto in eight months unrelated to cycling

 

[Belgian Anthias]

So then - (again) - you're accusing Fritz of intentionally misleading customers?

So picture this scenario:

1. Sterile bottle
2. Pure culture of nitrifying bacteria
3. Cold temperatures (bacteria do not die in the absence of ammonia - but merely stop growing)
4. They have a specific expiration date.

This would suggest that there would be no 'out competition' - and I'm not aware why this wouldn't work. Do you?

"About FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 Saltwater
FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 contains the same proven strains of effective, live nitrifying bacteria as FritzZyme® 9, but at 15 times the concentration. FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 reduces fish loss due to toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite.
Establishing colonies of nitrifying bacteria the without FritzZyme® can take weeks; FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 completely cycles aquariums in five days or less, allowing for safe, immediate addition of livestock. FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 may be added to new tanks or established systems any time the biofilter needs fortification including: after water changes, aggressive cleaning, adding new livestock, medicating or changing filter media."

A bottle may contain heterotrophic nitrifiers of which some are able to form cysts and can survive a very long time.

One can NOT condition a tank within a short period just by adding nitrifiers, also the effect of adding them will only last a very short time.

Autotrophic nitrifiers are slow growers and are always present there where remineralization takes place. No need for adding them. They will use the ammonium-nitrogen produced during remineralization. These bacteria have to work together with hundreds of other types of bacteria to stay healthy and need the time to form the microbial community needed. Adding a pure culture of nitrifiers does not bring in all other bacteria needed to install a proper and reliable autotrophic carrying capacity. Seeding a new tank with some fresh scraping from rock will install everything needed.
Corals and fish will import their own holobiont. Installing A reliable carrying capacity just needs time and is NOT delivered in a bottle.

 

[Arabyps]

A bottle may contain heterotrophic nitrifiers of which some are able to form cysts and can survive a very long time.

One can NOT condition a tank within a short period just by adding nitrifiers, also the effect of adding them will only last a very short time.

Autotrophic nitrifiers are slow growers and are always present there where remineralization takes place. No need for adding them. They will use the ammonium-nitrogen produced during remineralization. These bacteria have to work together with hundreds of other types of bacteria to stay healthy and need the time to form the microbial community needed. Adding a pure culture of nitrifiers does not bring in all other bacteria needed to install a proper and reliable autotrophic carrying capacity. Seeding a new tank with some fresh scraping from rock will install everything needed.
Corals and fish will import their own holobiont. Installing A reliable carrying capacity just needs time and is NOT delivered in a bottle.

Well, they are and they do.

 

[MnFish1]

If had to bet I would say bottled bac from any strain here would win, they've been using scientists to concentrate on nh3 alone using decades of tech

I do trust them in the ability to bottle that ability. keeping bacteria out of a liquid suspension is what's impressive.

Undoubtedly seawater will some some kick, we found enough cycling bacteria transported in tank water alone in this thread to cycle a totally dry system, but it took 20 days it wasn't skip cycle ready.

then again, we only tested it at day 20

the mystery remains.

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

That was the point - it takes 20 days. I bet if left a 100 gallon tank with one clown fish for 20 days - it would be cycled - with no harm to the fish - in 20 days

 

[MnFish1]

A bottle may contain heterotrophic nitrifiers of which some are able to form cysts and can survive a very long time.

One can NOT condition a tank within a short period just by adding nitrifiers, also the effect of adding them will only last a very short time.

Autotrophic nitrifiers are slow growers and are always present there where remineralization takes place. No need for adding them. They will use the ammonium-nitrogen produced during remineralization. These bacteria have to work together with hundreds of other types of bacteria to stay healthy and need the time to form the microbial community needed. Adding a pure culture of nitrifiers does not bring in all other bacteria needed to install a proper and reliable autotrophic carrying capacity. Seeding a new tank with some fresh scraping from rock will install everything needed.
Corals and fish will import their own holobiont. Installing A reliable carrying capacity just needs time and is NOT delivered in a bottle.

So - I'm going to ask you the question again. You are directly contradicting what the Fritz company states. I mean - im not trying to disagree with you - I'm just asking. BTW - I agree with you - there is no 'need' - but there is also no 'need' (IMHO) to spend weeks trying to 'cycle' a tank. Its my experience - that using bacteria in a bottle - whether heterotrophs, autotrophs or something else - that one can put an entire reasonable load of fish in on day 1 or 2 as compared to waiting 6 weeks - with no damage to the fish - or distress in the fish. The key question - I guess is for someone to pay for aquabiomics to test what bacteria are in the 'Fritz bottle'. BTW - I'm a microbiologist - I know how bacteria grow - I know the common nitrifying bacteria grow more slowly.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P

What if this is the mode at work (may not be, but might account for your finding)

Bottled bac added carries intended bioload initially and then nitrite control works out long after when natural mechanisms had time to take hold. I would only claim a bad bottle if the original bioload couldn't be carried. An anemone was being supported long before we'd expect nitrite control for Ike:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

I truly bet that nitrite control came long after his fish and corals were in full working mode

Belgian Anthias knows that if Ike set up all that life without the bottled bacteria in a dry start setup, the whole system would die in five hours. It's alive today / year / solely due to bottle bac.

Yes, this makes sense.

 

[drblank1]

I am not trying to be snarky - just to make sure - does this mean you didn't follow the instructions? I only ask this because - the way this product seems to be designed - I would wonder if 'day 1' of your cycle is really the day you got up to 2 ppm? IMHO - with all of these products (any additive) - its best to follow the instructions completely - and believe me I've learned this the hard way. I hope your tank is a great success now that this is behind you

Didn't take it as snarky. I may be a newbie to R2R, but not to the hobby. I am a stickler about following instructions (esp. testing). And that's why for Dr. Tim's, I read the instruction and reviewed the video. Not saying this is not a good product. I trust Dr. Tim. Just didn't work for me. Would be interested to hear other's experience too. I've read online reviews similar to my experience. ORP readings seem to correspond with my testing. ORP would not go over 150 until the tank actually cycled (no ammonia and no nitrite). Within 3 days of cycling, ORP shot up over 400.

 

[brandon429]

Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me

@Dan_P can you let us know if you feel that prior copper treated substrates would affect nitrification testing. I wouldn't think the old rocks would, was mainly concerned about the actively-dosed system altering the reading. lots of people reef with prior copper rocks and can't keep snails, but...

www.reef2reef.com

that answers post #1893

bottle bac emerge ready, live, active, case closed again. Dr Reef made a prediction about bottle bac prior on seneye, that did occur here by just adding the bottle into a dosed tank the nh3 went up when dosed, then down fast. Not as a nine day api delay

The debate on fish-in cycles harming fish seems ended, and DR already saw it just the same. This kind of precision on two nh3 digital testers, = very powerful look into bacterial strain isolation, transport ability, emergent speed, general ability with very tight controls in place, no contamination of supporting bac other than the bottle. Look how the seneye was calibrated on a full reef for a year in thousandths ppm nh3, nh3 spiked as a test and logged, and then on blanked new reef water at .001/lowest reading then back up to hundredths on a restricted quarantine setup and it goes back to thousandths on a working reef

nobody cares if these bacteria alternate into new strains and select out by year five

they only care if their clowns are safe from nh3, they are.

it’s from every angle possible, nh3 control by tilting a bottle of liquid into water. those rascals were able to package water bacteria in water and then ship it to us to be put in water and nothing died, = 2021