Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

[Dr. Reef]

I would ignore nitrite reading of 0.4 or 0.5 as test kit noise. If livestock k is doing fine I would ignore it. By the way ammonia upto 0.2 ppm NH3 is also not going to hurt the fish either. I think you should just do a 25% water change and just enjoy the tank.
You have fish and corals in the tank and thus ammonia and nitrite can fluctuate from hour to hour days to day.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Most microorganisms prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source for metabolism. Most bacteria able to use nitrate-nitrogen for metabolism inhibit enzyme production for nitrate reduction if the presence of ammonium is sensed.

There is no link between the use of a skimmer and a healthy aquarium. A healthy reeftank has a low DOC content which in my opinion is a lot more important as a low nitrate or phosphate level. The (strongest) skimmer removes organics very selective and only max +- 30% of DOC.
What is in the cup gives an idea of what is leftover and of what must be remineralized. A healthy tank has the ability for sufficient carrying capacity to support the increasing bioload, now and in the future, and a very effective remineralization capacity to keep DOC low. ref: There are a lot of healthy tanks without a skimmer.
A stable tank is based on sufficient autotrophic carrying capacity provided by a nitrifying biofilm. In a healthy nitrifying biofilm, all processes involved in the carbon, nitrogen, and sulfur cycles are taking place. A healthy biofilm needs time to develop and to make the connections between the different members of the community making it possible to work together. At least 3 weeks or more.

Adding bacteria from a bottle will not change much for installing a propper autotrophic carrying capacity. Even if all bacteria needed, autotrophs, heterotrophs, mixotrophs, aerobe and anaerobe, different sulfur bacteria, etc., could be provided by adding one or more bottles, the time needed to come out of lag phase, compete with healthy active specimen already present, install themselves and form a co-working microbial community must be respected.
Instead, adding scrapings of a healthy microbial community may bring everything needed. But still, patience is needed.
Even more important is the space available as to when the bio-load increases the carrying capacity must be able to follow and expand. Nitrification takes place everywhere, also in the water column, any surface will be used. Denitrification takes place in every healthy nitrifying biofilm ( +- 16%). In the aquarium, biofilms will be grazed by fishes and other organisms, they are constantly renewed and the passive carrying capacity will be limited and change without having control. That is why active nutrient management with bio-filters is used to install a stable carrying capacity which easily can be adjusted to the needs at any time.

 

[brandon429]

The posted nitrite reading is in question, not the biology of live rock skip cycle systems. These testers in the hobby cross read and misread, the nitrite posted isn't correct. Can reef/ proceed/ not a problem, live rock transfers are how most pico reefs are made, as well as all entrants into a reef convention where tanks work fine


For thirty years the hobby accepts all posted api Ammonia readings as correct, sets the whole microbiology of reefing around them. Unequivocally accepted for decades, without question, training materials for reef bacteria are set around what api says

Ff to today

Seneye shows api wrong in two ways

No .25 holding exists, no stuck .5 exists in reefing per seneye, not in any tank using rocks and sand/mass surface area common reefs. Not any seneyes agree with stuck cycle claims that have plagued us for decades

* an open challenge is to source stuck cycles from seneye logs in the tenths ppm and post them, from sand and rock tanks, talk about relevant data


And no real zero exists... when api misreads for various levels it could be ultra detecting true trace amounts of ammonia but reporting them as borderline lethal

Imagine what a seneye nitrite would show

We have got to require accurate measures before making bac assessments. Posting university studies to explain false posted cycling measures is so 1981-current

 

[brandon429]

Hobby alert for 2020

You don't have a way to accurately measure nitrite in a reef tank. Until seneye makes a nitrite detector ur out of luck. When they do make one, you’ll be shocked at what the real readings are just like ammonia


see these search returns? all false, not one stalled. Not one using seneye. nice ad placement though

 

[Lasse]

I do not no API tests - we do not have them in Sweden. But according to most NO2 (nitrite) tests for aquarium use that I have used - they normally are very good (I have compared them with lab equipments) - in fact IMO one of the most accurate hobby tests I have used and therefore the test i prefer in order to see if my aquarium have a good working nitrification process. Hobby tests for combined NH2/NH3 is another question - I never use them because they normally show wrong figures. 0.25 ppm seems to be the most common result - whatever the true value is :mad:

However in your case - when you still read around 0.5 ppm NO2 and only 3 in NO3 - I start to wonder if not your NO2 test is wrong in one or another way. A NO2 concentration of 0.5 ppm would normally give a reading between 25 and 50 ppm in NO3. (the factor of conversion is normally between 50 and 100 - depending on the brand). Try to confirm the reading with another test (brand) - but probably is @Dr. Reef right.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[DrTim]

So I started tank with fish and live rock 3 1/2 weeks ago with Fritz Turbostart 900. I even added an extra bottle a week later for good measure. Ammonia is reading 0.05 or 0, hard to tell with Red Sea test. But in the past week my Nitrites have increased up to .4 - .5 depending on the day. They have held steady at that rate for about 6 days now. I know that Nitrite in a marine aquarium is not as significant but when can I expect the Nitrites to drop back down? I reduced feeding this weekend as suggested in a different thread. Is there anything else I can be doing to speed up that process? I have a leather coral and zoa frag that were added this weekend and seem to be doing fine. Any thoughts on the Nitrites here? Btw my Nitrates are at 3.

Nitrite always will take longer to cycle because they are near their physiological maximum in respect to salinity tolerance so they have to spend more energy just maintaining the cell structure instead of dividing. To speed up cycling reduce the salinity as much as possible while increasing the temperature which, granted, will be hard since you have fish and corals in the tank. But any little bit will speed cycling.

 

[brandon429]

many are finding it more prudent to totally ignore nitrite, and never test for it

given that's not everyone... but its accurate to say a giant faction thinking that, and collecting setup examples (where nitrite is not factored in any cycling reef) is forming and no tanks are being lost, or missing important start dates like when moving to new home etc or making emergency dry start tanks for fish from a cracked tank etc

Im sensing a shift towards not factoring nitrite in reef cycling coming up...one less mistesting param to be measuring seems ideal

there is also no harm in waiting for nitrite to comply, but if we're dealing with a mis test that must be factored. if nitrate presence, or use of Prime is causing that nitrite reading, we need to know about that before considering a cycle stuck or stalled based on nitrite.

 

[RollTideReefer]

I do not no API tests - we do not have them in Sweden. But according to most NO2 (nitrite) tests for aquarium use that I have used - they normally are very good (I have compared them with lab equipments) - in fact IMO one of the most accurate hobby tests I have used and therefore the test i prefer in order to see if my aquarium have a good working nitrification process. Hobby tests for combined NH2/NH3 is another question - I never use them because they normally show wrong figures. 0.25 ppm seems to be the most common result - whatever the true value is :mad:

However in your case - when you still read around 0.5 ppm NO2 and only 3 in NO3 - I start to wonder if not your NO2 test is wrong in one or another way. A NO2 concentration of 0.5 ppm would normally give a reading between 25 and 50 ppm in NO3. (the factor of conversion is normally between 50 and 100 - depending on the brand). Try to confirm the reading with another test (brand) - but probably is @Dr. Reef right.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks, I hear what you and Dr Reef are saying. That was what was confusing me is how the Nitrites were increasing but Nitrates were not increasing at a 1:1 ratio. These eyeball tests trying to compare color on some chart drive me absolutely bananas. It is so subjective that you really only get a general range of alot of these parameters. It is near impossible for me to tell the difference between 0 and 0.2 Ammonia on the Red Sea test. I remember having the same issue 7 years ago with the API test when I had my first tank. I just ordered a Seachem multi-ammonia test so I will be curious to see what the NH3 is compared to the NH3/NH4 Red Sea test.

 

[Dr. Reef]

most commonly NH3 will be 20% of TAN

 

[DrTim]

A NO2 concentration of 0.5 ppm would normally give a reading between 25 and 50 ppm in NO3. (the factor of conversion is normally between 50 and 100 - depending on the brand).

I am not sure what is meant by this but if referring to conversion of nitrogen the numbers are incorrect. Most test kits report in ion unit - ammonium, nitrite or nitrate instead of standardizing to units of nitrogen as in ammonia-nitrogen, nitrite-nitrogen or nitrate-nitrogen.

This just leads to confusion - as the chart below shows - for every 1.358 ppm ammonium you will get about 3.284 pm nitrite and eventually about 4.427 ppm nitrate. If the test kits reported in unit of the nitrogen then 1 ppm ammonia-nitrogen would yield 1 ppm nitrite-nitrogen which would be converted to 1 ppm nitrate-nitrogen (so much easier!!).

There is no way 0.5 nitrite (NO2-) become 25 to 50 ppm nitrate (NO3-)

 

[Dr. Reef]

@DrTim
I cant thank enough for your expertise and your knowledge and you taking the time out of your busy schedule to answer few questions here and to set few facts straight, I really appreciate you.

I know you were in China recently, Please stay safe and if time permits do shed your knowledge here, We are always intrigued. Thank you



On side note, Guys i met Dr Tim in Dallas a little while back, Very nice humble guy, I was blown away with the amount of knowledge he has, I am so thankful for all the work he has done and continue to research in this hobby. Mind blowing.

 

[RollTideReefer]

So Ammonia is solidly at 0 now. Nitrate is reading at 10 but Nitrites are reading up to 0.75 now. I am maybe starting to think the test is not reading correctly. It is still bothering me that Nitrites are still creeping up this many weeks later. I am thinking of buying a different Nitrite test. Any suggestions on the best Nitrite test?

 

[MnFish1]

So Ammonia is solidly at 0 now. Nitrate is reading at 10 but Nitrites are reading up to 0.75 now. I am maybe starting to think the test is not reading correctly. It is still bothering me that Nitrites are still creeping up this many weeks later. I am thinking of buying a different Nitrite test. Any suggestions on the best Nitrite test?

I would consider not testing. Nitrite is not very toxic at high pH - and with an ammonia of 0 - the nitrite test must be 'wrong' I would think

 

[plankton]

Wow, 89 page thread! Can some kind person point me to a summary of the tests? TIA

 

[Dr. Reef]

@plankton

Fritz Turbostart 900 , Dr. Tim one and only and Bio Spria will work in sterile or non sterile tank.

Rest all I tested will work only in non sterile tanks with carbon source present. Thus suggesting they are hetrotorph bacteria in my opinion.

You can cycle tanks fast with any of these products. With the 3 mentioned above to be the fastest in same order.

Placing a pinch of food along with ammonia helps cycle faster. More sand and rock you have helps establish bacterial colonization.

Lower salinity also helps cycle faster specially through nitrites.

Honestly this was an ok test but I am reconstructing a test that would be more fair to the manufacturers.

All of them suggest starting a tank and dosing bacteria and adding fish.
I have a study coming up soon doing just that.
Stay tuned.

 

[brandon429]

First Tank Cycle

Hey everyone, I am new to the hobby and cycling my first tank. I have a 32.5g Fluval Flex. I started the cycle on 3/21. I used Dr Tims One & Only at the start. Inside the tank I've got the Caribsea Arag-Alive sand and Carib Sea Shapes rock. Currently, my readings are: Ammonia: 1 PPM Nitrite...

www.reef2reef.com

Dr Reef that thread is where the hobby is heading. Your upcoming test will be critical - seneye data


that tank there where his API says + ammonia present, but we’ve got ten days of clear water and living fish + feed, I say seneye would report in the safe zone thousandths ppm. When you run your tests here pls pls post api tube pictures along with seneye data for each tank

in the presence of rock and sand surface area, a typical cycling tank has excess surface area, there is no mechanism for stuck or holding ammonia, when it trends down (any kit can read a down trajectory, it’s zeroes we all debate) it goes to the safe zone, ammonia cannot hover in his tank at 1 ppm (my theory) some type of confound is happening so your seneye data where fish in cycling occurs will just be data gold.

inability to control ammonia kill systems by compounding, I firmly do not think any reading can 'hold' in the presence of activated surface area to the degree a normal tank shows...I strongly think fish-in cycling isn't burning fish at all or we would see opercular symptoms and lethargy and cloudy water signs.

 

[bozo]

I added 1 oz of Fritzzyme Turbostart 900 a couple of days ago.

Added 3 mL of pure ammonia 2 days later

Checked ammonia with api 12 hours after adding ammonia. 4PPM

Will check again at 24 hours after initial ammonia dose.

 

[bozo]

Ammonia at 1 ppm about 48 hours later.

Is this normal ?


Water volume is 25 gallons with rock.



Thanks

 

[Dr. Reef]

Turbostart 900 works really fast. In my test study 5 gal tanks cycled in 3 days.

 

[bozo]

Turbostart 900 works really fast. In my test study 5 gal tanks cycled in 3 days.

Ya that’s odd.

Here is today’s test about 10 mins ago

Ammonia at 1
Nitrate at 20

Just a disclaimer, I am using a test that expired in 08/2018.


Hahaha I’m waiting for the new kit to come in.


Should still work even thought it’s a bit expired?