Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[Dr. Reef]

Tagging along. Anecdotally, IME, bacteria-in-a-bottle products have been wasted money. I've never magically cycled faster with them, then without them, both FW and SW.

My ammonia method opposed to shrimp has been to add some fish food - frozen or dry, doesn't matter - and let it decompose and create ammonia.

In the other thread mentioned on my first post. I cycled first tank with 8ppm ammonia in 2 days and i repeated that test and cycled in 2 days again. Product that did it was Fritz Turbo Start 900.
Today i start on new study to be fair to manufacturers as most claim 8ppm was too high and may have killed bacteria or stalled them from colonizing.
So i will start with 2ppm and i am sure i will have results in 2 days. Stay tuned.

 

[Rick Krejci]

One note on the Seneye that I've experienced. I found the free ammonia reading bottomed out at 0.014 ppm, for a well established tank that was stable and should have been 0. It never wavered from this number, which confirmed that it wasn't any natural fluctuation and 0 total ammonia was confirmed by at least 2 other test kits. So I had to put a -0.014 "trim" in the GUI to get it to be accurate. And note that the calculated parameters (like NH4) in the GUI DO NOT recognize that entered bias and so can't be relied on for any sensitive purposes.

I was told by Seneye that this is just fine and not to worry about it until it reached 0.1 ppm free ammonia. Note that 0.014ppm is 3/4 of the way to Alert, despite the actual ammonia being 0!

They offered to replace the seneye, but I would have to send it to the UK (me paying postage), so I just contacted BRS (since it was just weeks old) and they replaced it for free.

Unfortunately the new one was still 0.012 biased, but it was useful for monitoring my hospital tank.

It's a handy device for PAR reading , although very susceptible to what angle you're holding it if using small light sources like Kessil LEDs.

As long as you understand the limitations and quirks, it's a nice device and has many uses.

But for an experiment like this, I'd calibrate 0 ammonia before relying on them for any scientific data and even after that don't rely on any of their calculated values unless your calibration was 0.

 

[brandon429]

Readers cycling a reef tank won't experience phosphate block or fail to cycle within the stated time frames of common cycle threads, wanted to make sure we keep the perspective that bac don't need our help, they only need water in this case.

Perhaps one can set up a quarantine tank in the barest atypical approach using specific phosphate stripped media and water to pull it off, and degrade the cycle out a few extra months, but it will still happen if there's water. ** Without specific measures, all tanks cycle within predicted timeframes related to boosts they use or not, this is established already in large work threads.

Using too little surface area is the risk, not starving bac.

Those cycles using no boosts at all, no bottle bac no ammonia, still self cycle. That's how dry skeleton aquariums were brought up in the 70s/80s/90s before bottle bac. Everyone knew nature provided well, given only water and a wait to add fish.

I begin to digress... not about the testing approach but the slightest implication that aquarists can stall or prevent cycles outside of:

Temp extremes

Desiccation

Medication
that's it.


The reason we use bottled bac at all is not because they're required, it's so we can cycle faster than the already known unassisted time frame.


The seneye monitor is a nice luxury but given access to all areas of the tank, to remove dead fish, nothing other than the big three stated will retrograde a cycle.

Ammonia should never be seen as a compound that is tricky or surprises Us in reefing it is possible to start a reef and run it fully without ever testing for ammonia because of this predictable nature of bacteria and ammonia. People with old school rock stack scapes can have hidden dead fish within...a seneye can tell us things we couldn't see only because the carcass is cached away. But a bommie aquascape? You can see all you need to see.

I read some of the material above about nitrifiers and it must be said that nitrifiers existing in a reef aquarium are not the same as those isolated onto a cold glass slide for testing. In order for the article writers to make statements about nitrifiers they have to isolate them and make pure cultures away from other types of bacteria, that's when they appear weak. That's why something in a bottle appears to meet a need we can't meet otherwise.

Nitrifers as found in nature, as found in a reef tank with the messy preps we use, are bulletproof aside from the big three.




I promise not to derail the testing here I know that's the goal and I'm thankful we have a really good ammonia tester to make some feedback.



are frozen lakes without nitrifers? The info about nitrifers from Fritz web page says they don't survive cold temps.

Nitrifers in a frozen lake are fully viable, even in a koi pond with fish frozen into place. If the nitrifers were dead, then first thaw kills all fish because of ammonia spike.

Do nitrifers exist in arctic zones frozen year round?

Desert pupfish habitats get hotter than the stated temp range for bottle bac nitrifers as well, these are neat ways to re establish strength vs weakness to our biofilters, and to remind any reader who doesn't mind waiting with water for a couple months their bacteria do all that's needed forever.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@Rick Krejci
Did the reading go up with more feeding and addition of new or more fish etc?

 

[Rick Krejci]

@Rick Krejci
Did the reading go up with more feeding and addition of new or more fish etc?

Before trimming the reading to 0, on my main tank the reading would stay perfectly stable, not varying from 0.014 for days despite having a good load of fish. After trimming, it just stayed 0. When I used it for my quarantine tank with a few small fish, it would vary of course until my seeded sponges took hold and it eventually settled to 0.014 and maybe bounce a little from there with the relatively low surface area. I also found it useful when I got some uncured live rock and used it to help me prevent the ammonia from getting too high from die-off to preserve all the life I could on it. Loved having continuous ammonia readings, although I'll admit that the Seachem stick-on ammonia alert was also great for this, costs $7 for about a year of readings vs. $140 for a year of Seneye slides.

But now that I have everything stable and am not adding anything to my main tank (and have an Apex), I don't feel compelled in the least to spend the IMO high monthly slide prices. As I said, it's handy as an inexpensive PAR meter though and luckily they don't charge you to use that.

 

[Jay1982]

We very pleased to announce that Seneye will be providing 5 units pre programmed for this study and will be on hand to provide both technical and methodology assistance.

As a point of reference should anyone be interested in purchasing we will be setting up a special discount code for this thread alone. I will announce this code shortly. This code will be used through all participating dealers.

If anyone has any questions we can be reached at [email protected]

Hey @AQD-Seneye, your location says Ottawa. I live in Ottawa as well. Any way I could get it directly from you? Or do you have a seller in the area?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Guys on my other study (link on first page Post #1) results are in and i can conclusively say Frtiz Turbo Start 900 did it again.
At 28 hr mark after dosing bacteria. Fritz dropped ammonia from 2 ppm to 0.5 and i am sure by tomorrow it will be 0. While others are showing 1.2-2ppm still.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

Guys on my other study (link on first page Post #1) results are in and i can conclusively say Frtiz Turbo Start 900 did it again.
At 28 hr mark after dosing bacteria. Fritz dropped ammonia from 2 ppm to 0.5 and i am sure by tomorrow it will be 0. While others are showing 1.2-2ppm still.

So fritz looks like the real deal?

 

[User]

How are you accounting for differing numbers of viable cells in each different bacterial preparation?

Before saying Fritz is best because it dropped ammonia in 28 hours, it’s possible it has triple/quadruple the viable bacterial dose of the other bottles used.

Just because it’s the fastest, Doesn’t mean it has a better blend of better bacteria- it might have a less optimal cell type, just a lot more of them.

 

[Brew12]

How are you accounting for differing numbers of viable cells in each different bacterial preparation?

Before saying Fritz is best because it dropped ammonia in 28 hours, it’s possible it has triple/quadruple the viable bacterial dose of the other bottles used.

Just because it’s the fastest, Doesn’t mean it has a better blend of better bacteria- it might have a less optimal cell type, just a lot more of them.

I think it is safe to say that this is only a test of how the product performs, not an analyzation of the bacteria strains in each product. Going back to the beginning, it was also not trying to determine the best product for a slow cycling process. The origin was in regards to instantly cycling something like a QT system.
Some products that don't do as well in this instant cycling test may be superior for those looking to cycle a DT over a period of weeks but that is outside the scope of these tests.

I do feel we should be very careful how we express the results to make sure that it matches the results of the test being performed.

 

[User]

Good points, and exactly my point. We need to be careful with how these ‘results’ are presented and displayed.

I made the comment in response to the ‘fritz is the real deal” for a 28 hour cycle comment.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Dosing is as per recommend amount listed on the bottle itself. Not set by how much a tank gets. Average hobbyist will most likely follow the instructions given on the bottle.

This study is simply to see if one had a spike in ammonia or was in a bind to setup a Qt in a hurry or similar situation where one needed a tank cycled quickly.
Then it would be safe to say Fritz can cycle in 2 days in a 5 gal tank etc.
Like brew said it may cycle quickly but over time some other bacteria may take over in your tank and become more populated than what we started with.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Update:
Today I received a package from Seneye.
As promised they sent me 5 monitoring units along with several slides to work with.
I like to thank them for sending me such a generous gift and letting me test my theory about ammonia and bacteria in real time.
These monitors are capable of monitoring ammonia (NH3) in real time live at all times.
As soon as I am done testing my other ongoing study I will reset the tanks to start working on this study.

Thank you Seneye.

 

[Dr. Reef]

@AQD-Seneye
I have a quick question regarding the monitors.
If i cycle a tank with a bacteria in bottle. We can see the ammonia levels drop to 0. Once at 0 if i dose copper based medicine in the tank. will the monitor pick up any die off or ammonia levels increasing due to bacteria dying?

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

What was the verdict?

 

[lakai]

What was the verdict?

Seems the verdict is that he got 5 free seneyes for personal use.

 

[Brew12]

What was the verdict?

Seems the verdict is that he got 5 free seneyes for personal use.

He hasn't started this part of the test yet. He has another thread with tests going that don't use the Seneye that he needs to finish to free up the tanks for this round of testing.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

He hasn't started this part of the test yet. He has another thread with tests going that don't use the Seneye that he needs to finish to free up the tanks for this round of testing.

Ah, please link that thread so i can see what's happening.

 

[Brew12]

Ah, please link that thread so i can see what's happening.

Not a problem!
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/

 

[cromag27]

Seems the verdict is that he got 5 free seneyes for personal use.

not accurate at all @Dr. Reef has been thoroughly testing, and posting results that could benefit all of us.