NH3 and NH4, cycling a new 90 gallon

[SaltyShrimpy]

Is the initial cycle done when you have low NH3 and high Nitrate readings? Using bacteria in a bottle with ammonia dosing?
Should I begin dosing kalkwasser immediately if PH and KH are lower than ideal?
At what point with a newly cycled tank should I start up my sulphur reactor?

I have been out of the hobby for 2+ years due to a move, but I'm getting back in. I want to take a technological\gear driven approach to this new 90 gallon build, with automated KH testing and dosing (kalkwasser), sulfur reactor, and automation using the Hydros controller.

I ultimately want this to be a packed flowy stony tank. My immediate concern is getting through the initial cycle.

I'm cycling my tank with Brightwell Aquatics Microbacter XLM. I bought the kit with their ammonia, XLM and Microbacter Clean. Dosed the tank with ammonia to 2 PPM, that was a week ago. I had a big bacterial bloom, super cloudy water, but that cleared up around day 4. Right now the water is crystal clear and just calling my name to add livestock.

I'm using the Seneye Reef monitor. I bought it mostly for the PAR meter, but I actually really like it, I may spend the $12.50 a month for new PH and NH3 cards. Hydros will give me PH readings but having two sources of data is attractive.

Seneye is telling me I have 3 hundreths (0.03) of a PPM NH3 and it's holding steady at that level for several days now.

On the other hand, my salifert ammonia test is reading between 0.5 and 1 PPM, and the LFS's red sea test read about 1 PPM. To my understanding, this is normal since those tests raise the PH to the point that NH4 is converted to NH3, they are reading 'total' ammonia, not just the toxic NH3, while the Seneye only reads NH3. My Hanna Checker nitrate is reading 69.8 PPM nitrate (which actually seems a bit high to me, I am going to retest).

So I believe right now that I'm cycled, and I should add my first livestock (after about a 50% water change) so I have a source of ammonia to keep the bacteria alive. Is my understanding correct?

Knowing myself, this is going to be a heavy stocked tank. I just love the look of a tank crowded with life and big tangs are my favorite fish. So I'm also planning on running a sulfur reactor to handle nitrates. Should I try to start it up right away? Or wait until I have a heavier bio load? I am going to add fish slowly over ~6 months.

My PH is reading low at 7.8 according to the Seneye. I'm having trouble with my Hydros X10, getting it to recognize the PH probe. And until I have the PH probe working I can't run KH tests with the Hydros iV. But, once I get that sorted out, assuming my PH is still low and KH is low, should I start dosing Kalkwasser immediately, or should I wait ~6 months when i plan to start introducing LPS?

I know this is a bit of a rambling first post, thanks in advance for your excellent experience, help and advice.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The ratio of NH3 to NH4+ in seawater is only determined by pH. Nothing else.

 

[jda]

.03 nh4 is fine to progress with your tank. You can slowly and smartly add some fish. Just know that the cycle is not done, is constantly evolving and you don't have the breath or depth of an ecosystem to handle a sudden or dynamic event.

If you are patient and smart everything will be OK.

As for the rest, don't sweat any of this for a while. pH will be changing as you grow/develop photosynthetic things which will change your reading. You might not need a sulphur denitrator at all, but you could. Just focus on getting a few fish, the uglies starting and then getting past them. None of the rest of this matters right now.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

The ratio of NH3 to NH4+ in seawater is only determined by pH. Nothing else.

What are the various readings?

The seneye is reading PH of 7.79. I'm working on sorting out the Hydros controller now (a problem with my home wifi evidently) so I can get a second PH reading from it's probe. It's also what I'll use to get KH readings.

Seneye NH3 reading is 0.029 PPM currently. It's dropped from 0.030 earlier today. It's held to between 0.031 and the current 0.029 for several days now.

I've seen some other seneye screenshots that show NH4 readings, but for some reason mine doesn't do that. It only shows NH3. I understand the NH4 reading is a calculation based on NH3 and PH anyway, and not a true reading.

So the only reason I believe NH3 is low and NH4 is high, is because the Seneye shows very low NH3, but other test kits that use TAM, converting NH4 to NH3 with high PH and then reading ALL the ammonia, are showing between 0.5 and 1 PPM.

I'm not too concerned with reading the total NH4 in the tank, as long as my understanding is correct - that for the purpose of initial tank cycle, NH4 can almost be ignored, focusing on having very low NH3 and seeing relatively high Nitrates (indicating that the Microbacter XLM converted the NH3 to nitrites, and then to nitrates). Is that accurate or am I missing something?

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

.03 nh4 is fine to progress with your tank. You can slowly and smartly add some fish. Just know that the cycle is not done, is constantly evolving and you don't have the breath or depth of an ecosystem to handle a sudden or dynamic event.

If you are patient and smart everything will be OK.

As for the rest, don't sweat any of this for a while. pH will be changing as you grow/develop photosynthetic things which will change your reading. You might not need a sulphur denitrator at all, but you could. Just focus on getting a few fish, the uglies starting and then getting past them. None of the rest of this matters right now.

Did you mean to say ".03 nh3" instead of nh4?

If so, thanks for confirming, and yep that's exactly my plan. I am going to do a big water change then add exactly one fish. Assuming everything is looking good, I'll slowly add fish over around 6 months, and then if everything is still stable 6 months in, I'll start to slowly add coral.

 

[jda]

If you are willing to be that patient, then forget about most of the rest of this. Cycling with bacteria that fall out of thin air (or fish guts) is fine you are willing to give 6 months and stuff.

The patience is worth more than any of the tools.

Most people worry too much about starting a tank when the only thing that matters is patience and brains. ANY method will work if you have those. ANY method will eventually work in time. The ecosystem will not usually be denied unless you interrupt it. Jumping ahead too far can kill fish and inverts, so that is the only hardfast rule.

Since you are just getting started, just know that Reef "technology" is mostly on the level of what High School kids did in 2007 for a class project. They all suck. They all have upgrade, connectivity and integration issues. Just don't depend on them or expect something good like iOS or a Nest and you will be OK - my sprinkler system has an interface and reliability that is multiple times better than any reef stuff. Many of the techies have long since dropped most of the tech because of this.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

Since you are just getting started, just know that Reef "technology" is mostly on the level of what High School kids did in 2007 for a class project. They all suck. They all have upgrade, connectivity and integration issues. Just don't depend on them or expect something good like iOS or a Nest and you will be OK - my sprinkler system has an interface and reliability that is multiple times better than any reef stuff. Many of the techies have long since dropped most of the tech because of this.

For sure I get this. I had a very expensive Apex setup on my last tank, and I swear every component would die on me about a month after the warranty expired.

This Hydros system I'm trying out is more affordable than Apex, especially to enable auto KH testing and dosing, but it's giving me fits to get it setup. I can send configurations and commands to the unit just fine via the cloud, but the unit can't evidently reply. The result is that it tells me "upload failed" but if I refresh I see that my upload did ultimately succeed. And also, Temp is the only probe that is working. PH and Salinity both act like no probe is connected.

I work in technology, this is a buggy mess TBH, but like you said, all reefing technology is kinda like this. I'll muddle through it and I'm sure I'll eventually get it working, but I won't solely depend on it for the ultimate success of my new tank.

 

[jda]

I was a senior staff software engineer for a huge valley company. I wrote my own controller on an old Mac Mini - bash, j2ee, ruby. I bought expensive probes, went 2-out-of-3 algorithm. I could ssh in from anywhere and the thing could back up and run in AWS. Even though it was reliable, it ended up just being an expensive timer. I did not want to use it to do anything other than monitor and report. When the old MacMini started to not want to update anymore, I just shut it off. I put the code on GitHub a long time ago.

In any case, if you work in tech that is not 20 years old, this will do nothing but frustrate you. I feel your pain.

The most complex controller that I have now is a Ranco temp controller and whatever those boxes are that come with Tunze pumps.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

I work for a software company, my role is half sales engineer and half pro services consultant. Most of my day to day is live proof of concept and new customer implementations.

Making our software work as it should on a wide disparate range of customer systems, basically. So I have a lot of patience, and when something doesn't work as it should, it's a challenge to be solved. It takes a lot to make me frustrated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The seneye is reading PH of 7.79. I'm working on sorting out the Hydros controller now (a problem with my home wifi evidently) so I can get a second PH reading from it's probe. It's also what I'll use to get KH readings.

Seneye NH3 reading is 0.029 PPM currently. It's dropped from 0.030 earlier today. It's held to between 0.031 and the current 0.029 for several days now.

I've seen some other seneye screenshots that show NH4 readings, but for some reason mine doesn't do that. It only shows NH3. I understand the NH4 reading is a calculation based on NH3 and PH anyway, and not a true reading.

So the only reason I believe NH3 is low and NH4 is high, is because the Seneye shows very low NH3, but other test kits that use TAM, converting NH4 to NH3 with high PH and then reading ALL the ammonia, are showing between 0.5 and 1 PPM.

I'm not too concerned with reading the total NH4 in the tank, as long as my understanding is correct - that for the purpose of initial tank cycle, NH4 can almost be ignored, focusing on having very low NH3 and seeing relatively high Nitrates (indicating that the Microbacter XLM converted the NH3 to nitrites, and then to nitrates). Is that accurate or am I missing something?

I do not think it is best to ignore NH4+ for most purposes. My suggestion is to always refer to total ammonia.

This article explains the ratios and other ammonia aspects:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

I do not think it is best to ignore NH4+ for most purposes. My suggestion is to always refer to total ammonia.

I'm trying to consider NH4 for the purposes of the initial cycle. Basically we have Seneye that is only measuring NH3, and practically every other test kit measuring total ammonia.

I understand with this bacteria in a bottle fishless cycle method, there is a sweet spot where nitrifying bacteria have the toxic NH3 converted -> Nitrite -> Nitrate, and if I wait too long before adding another source of ammonia (a fish) the nitrifying bacteria can starve and start to die back, setting back the cycle and also possibly exposing fish to NH3 when I do add one of them.

From what I understand, NH4 is harmless to fish, but as temp and PH increase, the NH4 will be converted to NH3. When the biological filter is healthy, the NH3 will be consumed quickly and won't harm livestock.

So I reason that, given my NH3 is at levels that are not harmful, and my Nitrate is high, and my PH, while a bit low, is very steady, I'm in that sweet spot and I should add the first fish.

This begs a question, will the same bacteria that consume NH3 also consume NH4? If the answer is yes, then I can wait a bit longer until NH4 levels start to drop significantly. If not, then I need to get a fish added quickly because I have very low levels of NH3 currently, meaning the bacteria that consume them are possibly already starting to die off.

As I type this, I also fully realize that I am likely overcomplicating the situation

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm concerned about this thread.

0.03 ppm NH3 at pH 7.79 will have quite a substantial amount of total ammonia (1 ppm) and I would not add fish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

NH3 and NH4+ interconvert many, many times per second. They are not distinct populations.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

I'm concerned about this thread.

0.03 ppm NH3 at pH 7.79 will have quite a substantial amount of total ammonia (1 ppm) and I would not add fish.

Indeed, I am seeing between 0.5 and 1 PPM on the 'total ammonia' test kits. And i'm also concerned which is why i'm asking the questions. Anytime I search for something like "is NH4 toxic to fish" I get results that say, nope it's completely harmless to fish.

As you say, I've also read that ammonia converts between the two forms rapidly, picking up and dropping the extra hydrogen atom frequently.

I have sources like Seneye and Brightwell Aquatics saying I can add fish basically right now, when NH3 is low but NH4 is showing up on the tests. My gut feeling is that I should wait until NH4 is also low, but I've been warned that if I wait too long I miss the 'sweet spot' and the ammonia oxidizing bacteria that I just grew will start to starve and die off since they've consumed everything in the tank and I've not introduced a new source in the form of the first fish.

 

[jda]

I reread the first post and thought that you had .03 for total ammonia. If you are getting .5 to 1.0 on salifert, then trust that. My apologies if led astray.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I discuss tox issues in the linked article and give data. I would not put fish in 1 ppm ammonia, even if the low pH was providing some protection.

What if the pH is higher than you think, or goes higher?

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

I discuss tox issues in the linked article and give data. I would not put fish in 1 ppm ammonia, even if the low pH was providing some protection.

What if the pH is higher than you think, or goes higher?

I feel like something is missing or being miscommunicated - i don't think it matters what my PH actually is, whether it's higher or lower than what my seneye reads. I'm not calculating ammonia based on my PH readings, I'm getting the ammonia readings directly from the seneye and test kits.

But maybe none of that matters in practice. Because I agree with you, I don't want to put fish into a tank with any form of ammonia present. My concern has been that the product I'm using, and guidance from Seneye, seems to suggest I should add fish now so that I don't see a reduction or die off of ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. But after trying to do some further research, I think I've learned that AOB doesn't care if it's NH3 or NH4 it will still consume it. So I can just keep waiting, using my salifert kit which will tell me total ammonia, and wait for the total ammonia to drastically reduce below what the salifert kit can measure, before adding livestock. And there should be no danger of bacteria dying down due to lack of NH3 to consume.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The pH does matter. The lower the pH value when you determined that 0.03 ppm, the higher that value will become when (if) the pH rises to a more normal value. Do you want a tank where the fish survive at pH 7.79 but die at pH 8.2? Protecting fish by pH is a risky plan, and 1 ppm ammonia is not a good idea.

I also have little reason to put much faith in the exact Seneye accuracy.

 

[taricha]

Because I like proof and I don't trust cloudy water blooms with nitrification (the blooms can consume some ammonia in a short time, then stop and interfere with the nitrifying biofilms that you expect to do the work long-term), I'd add another 1-2ppm or two and track it. If it clearly trends down to below 0.5ppm - without a bacterial bloom - then that's proof enough for me that things are done and well established.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

Because I like proof and I don't trust cloudy water blooms with nitrification (the blooms can consume some ammonia in a short time, then stop and interfere with the nitrifying biofilms that you expect to do the work long-term), I'd add another 1-2ppm or two and track it. If it clearly trends down to below 0.5ppm - without a bacterial bloom - then that's proof enough for me that things are done and well established.

I think I've gotten the help and answers I need at least for this stage of things. Understanding that ammonia-oxidizing bacteria don't really care if it's NH3 or NH4 form, they will still consume and convert it to nitrite, tells me that my NH3 readings can get very low or zero out, and I can continue to wait for NH4 to drop, without any risk that my bacteria colony is going to starve and die back, ruining or prolonging my cycle.

So I don't need to be in a rush to add fish just cause NH3 is low. I can wait for total ammonia to be low then proceed