Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

stalled cycles in my studies were due to lack of carbon source in the tank. Most all the bacteria in bottle except for fritz turbostart 900, dr tim and bio spira are hetrotrophic in nature (in my opinion) and require carbon, Also other reasons for stall is low alk and pH.

 

[brandon429]

Lasse

those threads above as examples are a bit behind the times for skip cycle references, pico reefs have been skipping cycles since 2002 we have lots of data to reference, my claim that nitrite has no bearing in a reef cycle comes from all pico reefs we can currently locate too. An entire niche of the hobby thrives on nonmeasure. Those are mostly live rock skip cycles, the bottle bac skip cycle indeed is lacking long term analysis. We will have to watch their builds mature to know



in cycle analysis posts we think the patterns show using caribsea live sand and dry rock and a single brand of bottle bac (the most common cycling arrangement approach used) can’t stall if the bac is live...it will be neat to see collective seneye data on reef tank cycles in general once the measure becomes more common in param reports. Typical cycles involve extra ammonia and sourcing from wet sand along with bottle bac, theyre typically over fed people’s nitrate measures show as a trend... To see that arrangement fail to cycle on seneye would be article gold. Quarantine tanks or tanks with lesser surface area aren’t as surprising for noncompliance.

 

[Lasse]

I can do this study 2 ways.

1. Setup sterile tanks and dose bacteria and place fish. (this is what most all bacteria manufacturer say to do)

2. I can dose very small amounts of ammonia over 24 hrs and also dose bacteria and see how fast NH3 goes down to 0. (method seneye recommends)

I choose to conduct study 1 because that what bottle says and that would the closest to what manufacturer recommend hobbyist to do.

I am open for suggestions because i want to get the best out of these studies.

Without any doubt -. setup 1

But if you can vary the feedings and take NO2 readings too - we will get more information.

NO3 readings - not necessary IMO

everyone who has ever reported a stuck cycle is not using seneye

I have not use seneye but I have used lab certified methods in order to analyse both NH3/NH4 and NO2 in combination with stuck cycles. I have not see any comparisons with seneye and lab certified methods - they maybe exist - but I have not seen it

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

Without any doubt -. setup 1

But if you can vary the feedings and take NO2 readings too - we will get more information.

NO3 readings - not necessary IMO

Sincerely Lasse

Sure i can do that, I will vary the feedings and also take NO2 readings along the way.
Seneye records NH3 levels every 5-7 min. I will take NO2 readings 4 times a day. 6-8AM, 12-2PM, 6-8PM and 12-2AM.

 

[Lasse]

stalled cycles in my studies were due to lack of carbon source in the tank. Most all the bacteria in bottle except for fritz turbostart 900, dr tim and bio spira are hetrotrophic in nature (in my opinion) and require carbon, Also other reasons for stall is low alk and pH.

All my sources says that most nitrite oxidizers are autotrophs. Not need any organic carbon. But inorganic carbon and inorganic phosphorous.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

All my sources says that most nitrite oxidizers are autotrophs. Not need any organic carbon. But inorganic carbon and inorganic phosphorous.

Sincerely Lasse

In my case earlier all stalled cycles were stalled in ammonia not budging from 2ppm. Never checked NO2 as it was not intended to be tested until ammonia was down to 0. But in this study i will check NO2 like mentioned above daily from day 1.

 

[RollTideReefer]

100 pounds of true live rock needs no boosting, no bottle bac, it shows up fully loaded with bacteria as moving rocks tank to tank does not kill bacteria requiring a do over

Even if there is a dry portion to be added to the live, don't add bottle bac it's a waste of money as the live portions contribute bac to the dry ones pretty fast. Bottle bac would be used if there was no live rock and it was a total dry start. 100 pounds of live rock would support twenty fish immediately, but have a disease protocol chosen for any fish added.

I mispoke. It is not true live rock. It is the Real Reef Rock brand which is a manufactured rock. It contains no bacteria colonies so there will be no die off.

 

[brandon429]

very over purchased multiple brands of bottle bac. Still nitrite. happens a hundred times a day across forums. 40% of bottle bac sales are driven by nitrite stalling claims, we are about to prove here he’s cycled just fine.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cycling-issues.694094/#post-7135597

i wanted examples in place that nitrite testing has issues, and bottle bac doesn’t always cover it.

 

[Lasse]

IMO - It is important to use bacteria blends that´s normally only content nitrification bacteria - it means that they should not contain heterotrophic bacteria. Heterotrophic bacteria can compete out the more slow growing autotrophic nitrification bacteria - especially the nitrite oxidisers. They compete about attaching areas.

IMO - the start of an aquarium does not only just cover - do not kill the fish - the start should also cover a start of a healthy microbe fauna in order to give the system stability in the long run. This include a complete nitrification cycle - when it is established - you can concentrate on other bacteria types.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Just to keep comparatives on file regarding seneye, bottle bac and cycling, some pretty bold claims are made here.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...ammonia-in-reefing.685288/page-4#post-7139887

the claim is that at no time when measuring accurately will ammonia stall in any cycling reef tank using rocks and sand, and that bottle bac makers are profiting wildly off false microbiology we circulate to ourselves for two decades in web forums. We will show in that thread that nitrite has no bearing on a cycle. My intent was to bait the entire chemistry forum/scary smart people/ into either proving or disproving the notion.

so far, it’s looking like no cycle can stall when using rocks and sand, typical reef surface area. It’s looking like a new concept behind how cycling works will be ushered in by seneye.


*********that thread is not for posting common data/opinions about ammonia/nitrite/nitrate three part nitrification, we only want seneye work there so that we are different than assessment threads using api. We are trying to prevent that thread from becoming a personal testimony battle but instead a direct measure thread compared to today’s major concepts in cycling. Anyone with seneye data, we want. The thread also specifically includes sourcing out stalled cycle threads and redirecting entrants to put in bioload right when they think it’s stalled, the bioload always lives. The implied consequence of the stalled cycle doesn’t manifest. Anyone with seneye or a cycle thread work link can post counter findings or supportive findings, we want the counter data. We want to be tested for the claims- with a work link or with seneye, not with university links or past experience etc.

it is interesting to see if non reef tanks can stall/aquarium + bag of media. But to get a reef tank to stall, typical rocks and sand with much more accessible surface area for water to contact, we cannot find one instance of it occurring unless non seneye is the measure.

 

[Lasse]

Because of that nitrite is not acute toxic for many salt water species - it does not mean that nitrite stalling not can happen. And it happens very often when the cycle is done wrong. But sometimes people are like the ostrich - if it sticks its head in the sand it cannot see the imminent danger. But it is still there - even if you do not measure. And can hit you with force - if it was a Rino

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

What you mean by that specifically is we will have an example of our starting bioload die? Time will tell. We can track outcomes.

 

[Lasse]

My first experiences of stalling nitrification is from the early 70:ties and it have shown up in freshwater aquarium, waste water treatments plant, fish farms and saltwater since that. In saltwater - it is not critical according to surviving of the fish - but it is still there. I do not need to invent the wheel again. I know that it is working if it will be allowed to complete the circle

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

What you mean by that specifically is we will have an example of our starting bioload die?

I do not understand this statement

Sincerely Lasse

 

[RollTideReefer]

So I am starting my Red Sea Reefer 525XL this weekend. I plan to use Fritz 900 to jump start the tank. I will have a man made rock call Reel Reef Rock, the Red Sea 900 Skimmer, etc. I plan to use clown as my source of Ammonia to start the tank. Usually one would add two clowns and take it easy for a while. However, I plan to have four total clown in my tank and have reserved them at my LFS. Both the aquarium group that is going to be maintaining my tank and the LFS said I should be fine adding all four clowns at once to avoid aggression later. Any thoughts on that? Or is the less risky move to add the two smaller clowns first and then introduce the other two clowns a week or two later? All four of these clown are relatively small.

 

[Lasse]

So I am starting my Red Sea Reefer 525XL this weekend. I plan to use Fritz 900 to jump start the tank. I will have a man made rock call Reel Reef Rock, the Red Sea 900 Skimmer, etc. I plan to use clown as my source of Ammonia to start the tank. Usually one would add two clowns and take it easy for a while. However, I plan to have four total clown in my tank and have reserved them at my LFS. Both the aquarium group that is going to be maintaining my tank and the LFS said I should be fine adding all four clowns at once to avoid aggression later. Any thoughts on that? Or is the less risky move to add the two smaller clowns first and then introduce the other two clowns a week or two later? All four of these clown are relatively small.

It is not the number of fishes that is critical - it is you feeding regime. Please read here. I am sure that if you follow the advice with very, very low feeding and adding bacteria every day - it will work well

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

If nitrite isn’t ready, and truth is coming like a rhino, then my understanding of your statement is that our starting bioload will die if nitrite is present. I read that you find nitrite compliance critical to allowing a reef start.


if they don’t die, its cycled. People only care if their fish and corals grow and thrive, they don’t care about having every possible succession of bac in place before starting. I’m having you clarify what you think the consequence is from not bothering to measure nitrite during a cycle
I posted a work thread above where the aquarist is directly showing nitrite after more than one bottle bac dose, nobody told him about misreading possibilities, yet we started his reefing just fine.

does it delay someone’s allowed start date if their api says blue

 

[RollTideReefer]

Ok, so need a little input here. I started my tank 2/29/20. It is a Red Sea 525XL (139g). My local aquarium service company put Real Reef Rock (man made product that claims to have bac in it). Salinity was at 1.023 at install due to some extra RODI being added from ATO by accident. I added two bottles of Turbo Start that Saturday, and on Sunday four small clownfish were added as well. A third bottle of Turbo Start was added a week later. Clean up crew was added last Sat 3/7/20 For the first two weeks Ammonia never rose above 2ppm and has been very close to 0 for two weeks now. Nitrites did not show up until the end of the second week along with Nitrates. For the past four days ammonia remains at near 0 but Nitrites have spiked up to 0.4 the past two days. Nitrates are now up to 3. Does this late spike of Nitrites seem normal? Has the cycle stalled? I have had no livestock losses thus far and fish seem perfectly fine, eating great, etc. Just to be sure I added some AquaVitro Seed today because my LFS was out of TurboStart. PH is currently at 8.1 and I have slowly raised salinity to 1.025. Does the presence of Nitrate mean that I do indeed have the correct bacteria converting Nitrite into Nitrate?

3/9: Temp 77Deg, NH3/4 - 0.1, NO2 - 0.1, NO3 - 0.5
3/10: PH - 8.1, NH3/4 - 0.1, NO2 - 0.15
3/12: PH - 8.1, NH3/4 - 0.05, NO2 - 0.3, NO3 - 2
3/13: NH3/4 - 0.05, NO2 - 0.4
3/14: NH3/4 - 0.05, NO2 - 0.3, NO3 - 3

 

[Lasse]

As long as you have NO2 (nitrite) readings - you can´t trust the NO3 (nitrate) readings. It will show a too high figure. It is probably 0 in your case. However - NO2 is not as acute toxic to marine animals as it is for fresh water - you are safe. I would feed very, very sparsely in the coming weeks or until you read zero (or very close to) NO2. I would only feed with a few grain of dry feed or a few frozen adult artemia to each fish until its down. To be frank - I had stop to feed for 2-5 days but I know that it is difficult because you feel like an evil - not giving the fish feed - and if you have children - you get it tough :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[RollTideReefer]

As long as you have NO2 (nitrite) readings - you can´t trust the NO3 (nitrate) readings. It will show a too high figure. It is probably 0 in your case. However - NO2 is not as acute toxic to marine animals as it is for fresh water - you are safe. I would feed very, very sparsely in the coming weeks or until you read zero (or very close to) NO2. I would only feed with a few grain of dry feed or a few frozen adult artemia to each fish until its down. To be frank - I had stop to feed for 2-5 days but I know that it is difficult because you feel like an evil - not giving the fish feed - and if you have children - you get it tough :)

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for the input. My Ammonia is still close to 0 but the Nitrites went back up to 0.5. Very strange that Nitrites started spiking this far from when the bacteria was added. I am starting to think they some of the allegations that these bottled bac mostly have bacteria that consume Ammonia and not Nitrite is partially true.