Bacteria interaction with neutralized ammonia?

[CaseyWagner]

This has probably been asked before but my google-fu is not getting me results.

If ammonia in a tank has been neutralized when using an agent like Microbe Lift water conditioner to bind up heavy metals, etc. can the ammonia eating bacteria in the tank still consume the neutralized ammonia? Or will the colonized bacteria begin to suffer from a lack of available NH3?

Cheers!

 

[taricha]

good Qs.
the 2nd one first...

Or will the colonized bacteria begin to suffer from a lack of available NH3?

not at all. nitrifiers can survive just fine for long periods with very little ammonia detectable. They won't starve and die if you add some water conditioner.

can the ammonia eating bacteria in the tank still consume the neutralized ammonia?

The ammonia is not destroyed, just bound into a less harmful form. It's still apparently bioavailable as an N source.
here's a description from these type of products.
"Seachem Prime immediately and permanently removes chlorine and chloramine, successfully allowing the bio filter to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate while they are detoxified for 48 hours."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I describe the chemistry of some ammonia binders here, but exactly which organisms consume the products is not known to me:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/

Treatments for Elevated Ammonia: Hydroxymethanesulfonate
Various types of compounds are used in commercial products to bind ammonia in marine aquaria. One is hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-). It is a known ammonia binder16 patented for aquarium use by John F. Kuhns17 and sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others.

Ammonia's reaction with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product aminomethanesulfonate (shown below).16 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- --> H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

What ultimately happens to the aminomethanesulfonate in a marine or reef aquarium is not well established, but it does appear to be significantly less toxic than ammonia, and more than likely it is processed by bacteria into other compounds.

Marineland Bio-Safe claims to contain sodium hydroxymethanesulfinic acid (HOCH2SO2-). I do not know if that is a typographical error, or if Marineland really uses this slightly different compound.

Note: products containing hydroxymethanesulfonate hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the H2NCH2SO3- formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

Treatments for Elevated Ammonia: Hydrosulfite and Bisulfite
A second type of compound used in commercial products (such as Seachem Prime) that claim to bind ammonia in marine aquaria is said to contain hydrosulfite (could be either HSO2- or - O2S-SO2-) and bisulfite (HSO3-). These compounds are well known dechlorinating agents, reducing Cl2 to chloride (Cl-), which process is also claimed to occur in these products. It is not apparent to me whether these ingredients actually react with ammonia in some fashion, or whether unstated ingredients in these products perform that function. Seachem chooses to keep the ingredients of their product secret, so aquarists cannot determine for themselves what is taking place, and how suitable it might be. Nevertheless, many aquarists seem to have successfully used products such as these to reduce ammonia's toxicity.

Note: products such as Seachem Prime hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the product formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

 

[taricha]

Note: products such as Seachem Prime hamper the ability to test for ammonia when using certain types of test kits (see above). Presumably, the product formed is still reactive with the Nessler reagents, even though it is not ammonia.

In addition to the Nessler yellow-forming , the Salicylate green/blue-forming method, like in API and Red Sea kits also uses high pH. I believe they both show the ammonia even though it's been bound by the additive.

In principle, whether the bound ammonia gets munched by bacteria ought to be checkable. Seneye monitor detects free ammonia only (so it won't see the bound ammonia). Seachem color disks detect free ammonia, or if you add a drop of their high pH additive, total ammonia.

Shouldn't be too hard to spike a sample of some tank water with 1-2 ppm ammonia, neutralize with additive. Confirm measurement of zero free ammonia, but plenty of total ammonia.
Then add a carbon dose and see if the bacteria can munch up the bound ammonia, dropping the total ammonia down to zero like the free ammonia.

 

[CaseyWagner]

Thanks for these amazing answers

I used ammonium chloride to bring a cycling tank up to 2ppm.
Afterward I used the water treatment just to be sure I got any metals in the water. (We have well water here, no RODI yet, but it's very low TDS).

I used an API ammonia test and saw that it still registered the ammonia, then tried a a Salifert test and found that it did not detect ammonia at all.

So that's what got me thinking about the bioavailability of the ammonia to microorganisms. If they would see the ammonia differently as well

 

[brandon429]

they were amazing answers I enjoyed reading. anything regarding ammonia I have to read 5x over for partial comprehension its tough chemistry I think.

relayed from the new tank cycling forum I am 100% sure there's a misnomer that adding prime will stall cycles due to robbing / binding up feed, not the case. looks like this thread details why quite nicely.

 

[taricha]

I used an API ammonia test and saw that it still registered the ammonia, then tried a a Salifert test and found that it did not detect ammonia at all.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, I thought Salifert ammonia was a Nessler kit. It should have picked up 2ppm ammonia, I would have guessed.

 

[CaseyWagner]

It would seem to be a Nessler from googling. Hmmm!