Ammonia is Our Friend!

[sixty_reefer]

Thank you Randy. Timley…..Turns out Im about to do a build thread testing/evaluating a 100% dosing sytem/method dispensing as much bacterial related hub-bud all the while minimizing the whole nitrifcating thing as much as possible. Even down to using plastic frag plugs ( minimizing bacterial attachment surface area as much as possible)
Basically Im “attempting” a no fish, no live rock system and will need to dose “something” … (emphasis on “attempt”)

Thanks to your article apparently this will be either of the ammonia compounds mentioned in your article…

I wont detour any further, following with intense intrest…
Thank you

Are you opening a thread on this? Looks a fab set up

 

[Doctorgori]

Are you opening a thread on this? Looks a fab set up

Again this is timley….
Yes, there is a TON of overlap with Randys article. the experiment/build was inspired by the recent threads these last 18months centered around Randys DIY nitrate/ammonia discussion threads…

The potential informational “fractals” off of this is huge.
To be specific, the very point of my build is to measure and document more precisely the uptake /demand of the nitrogen family, aminos, and 3 majors. or even see if its possible.

Its a evolution…. but basically removing “interferance from CUC, fish and the whole nitrification/bacterial universe as much as possible and see what shakes…

Pardon…now back to your regularly scheduled program

 

[sixty_reefer]

Again this is timley….
Yes, there is a TON of overlap with Randys article. the experiment/build was inspired by the recent threads these last 18months centered around Randys DIY nitrate/ammonia discussion threads…

The potential informational “fractals” off of this is huge.
To be specific, the very point of my build is to measure and document more precisely the uptake /demand of the nitrogen family, aminos, and 3 majors. or even see if its possible.

Its a evolution…. but basically removing “interferance from CUC, fish and the whole nitrification/bacterial universe as much as possible and see what shakes…

Pardon…now back to your regularly scheduled program

Looking forward to read the thread. There is some that I’d like to discuss with you after your first 30 days if possible.

 

[Doctorgori]

Looking forward to read the thread. There is some that I’d like to discuss with you after your first 30 days if possible.

Absolutely, I will need help …I have zero clue about any of this.It will be interesting to see if we can simply dose ammonia and aminos and call it a day…
Not sure if skimmer, refugium and or phyto dosing will be needed or not….as is; no clue how to manage algae without CUC or another competitor algae species..

Anyway this “Chemical only” approach is intriguing…
Not sure how much background noise bacteria induce or not.
I dunno, all these threads got me wondering if live rock, cycling, blah blah in unnecessary window dressing..

Perhaps we are better off with plastic treasure chest, plastic divers and sunken skulls…Maybe we let our Homewrecker acros grow over inert plastic and feed em ammonia/amino potions and magic elixirs…
I say this in all seriousness..

Edited

 

[IceNein]

Glad you touched on "what is cycling." I kinda got into it on the shrimp tank subreddit because most freshwater shrimp tanks are heavily planted, and someone was saying "you need to cycle the tank" and I was trying to explain that cycling was unneccesary because the plants would use up all the ammonia that the shrimp and food gave off.

The reason we're concerned with cycling our tanks is to make sure that we have an organic system in place to detoxify the water. What is removing ammonia or preventing its accumulation is totally irrelevant, IMO. But people are so dogmatic with following "what is right" that it becomes a bit of a cargo cult.

 

[rhaetuluscrenatus]

Thank you Randy, grace to Amonia dosing, my tank has much better in many point :
- Better PE to my acroporas
- less glass algae
- disappeared of bryopsis in the sump (before that it was bryopsis and chaeto in the sump, and the bryosis created many troubles like stucked in the pumps of reactor/ over flow etc... , now only chaeto so i'm happy with that)

 

[sixty_reefer]

Absolutely, I will need help …I have zero clue about any of this.It will be interesting to see if we can simply dose ammonia and aminos and call it a day…
Not sure if skimmer, refugium and or phyto dosing will be needed or not….as is; no clue how to manage algae without CUC or another competitor algae species..

Anyway this “Chemical only” approach is intriguing…
Not sure how much background noise bacteria induce or not.
I dunno, all these threads got me wondering if live rock, cycling, blah blah in unnecessary window dressing..

Perhaps we are better off with plastic treasure chest, plastic divers and sunken skulls…Maybe we let our Homewrecker acros grow over inert plastic and feed em ammonia/amino potions and magic elixirs…
I say this in all seriousness..

Edited

I am no expert, my interest is that I’ve done something similar and I’d like to compare notes:


1. I believe that the result in your experience may be that you find a balance between ammonia and coral uptake of the same. You would have to aim at keeping ammonia and phosphate ppm very low similar to sea levels.

•Tracking low ammonia and phosphate could be a issue.

2. With higher ammonia levels there is a possibility that most ammonia could become Nitrate due nitrifying bacteria on the tank surface convert it to nitrate.
And also become available to Nuisance algae.

•Excess ammonia would have to be managed

To manage option 2:

1. Macro algae

• No protein skimmer is required
• Trace elements would have to be dosed additionally more regularly
• More regular additions of phosphate
Possible assimilation rate between 20:1 and 60:1 depending on the algae

2. Carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar)

• Protein skimmer would be required
• Anoxic media would be required
• More regular additions of phosphate
• More food to coral via bacteria pathway
• Possible assimilation rate 16:1 to 25:1

3. Carbon dosing (from macro algae’s carbohydrates)

• Protein skimmer would be required
• Anoxic media (not sure)
• Less phosphate demand
• More food to coral via bacteria pathway
• Possible assimilation rate 160:1 to 250:1

Hope it helps

 

[Doctorgori]

I read and re-read this

Nessler Test Kits

The reaction of ammonia with Nessler's reagent, K2HgI4, forms a colored precipitate of (Hg2N)I·H2O. Low levels of ammonia are yellow, higher is orange and even higher levels can be brown. The overall reaction is:

NH3 + 2[HgI4]2− + 3OH− → HgO·Hg(NH2)I + 7I− + 2H2O

One significant concern with the Nessler method is the toxicity and hazardous nature of the waste that is generated by its use (it contains mercury).

Salicylate Test Kits

Ammonia's reaction with hypochlorite forms monochloramine, which then reacts with salicylate in the presence of sodium nitro-ferricyanide to form 5-aminosalicylate. That complex is yellow to green to dark green based on the level of ammonia present. In some versions of the test, calcium and magnesium can cause interference, so be sure such a kit is designed for marine systems.

My suggestion is to always measure total ammonia. If a kit gives a choice of measuring free ammonia, don't bother. You can always use a table to convert total ammonia to free ammonia if there is a strong reason to do so. The reason to measure total ammonia is that the signal will be much larger, so the kit will be more capable of distinguishing a small reading of ammonia from no detectable ammonia.

Pardon the summons @Randy Holmes-Farley

But I am about to order…
Which one of these hobby grade test kits fits the bill? (Fully realizing you may not have a clue about the particulars of each one but also assuming you know more about them than myself)

Salifert
ASF
Fritz
Hanna
Red Sea

 

[AlexandraDreadlocksPanda]

Having read that Ammonia ‘gasses off’ from a solution, how long will a solution stay viable for in a sealed dosing container, with only a pinhole to allow air in? I’m looking at making the solution at 3x strength (60g / 1000ml), 1.5L at a time. This will give 35 days worth for me, assuming my calculations are correct for my daily consumption of Nitrate from Potassium Nitrate being 0.84ppm?

 

[Doctorgori]

I am no expert, my interest is that I’ve done something similar and I’d like to compare notes:


1. I believe that the result in your experience may be that you find a balance between ammonia and coral uptake of the same. You would have to aim at keeping ammonia and phosphate ppm very low similar to sea levels.

•Tracking low ammonia and phosphate could be a issue.

2. With higher ammonia levels there is a possibility that most ammonia could become Nitrate due nitrifying bacteria on the tank surface convert it to nitrate.
And also become available to Nuisance algae.

•Excess ammonia would have to be managed

To manage option 2:

1. Macro algae

• No protein skimmer is required
• Trace elements would have to be dosed additionally more regularly
• More regular additions of phosphate
Possible assimilation rate between 20:1 and 60:1 depending on the algae

2. Carbon dosing (vodka, vinegar)

• Protein skimmer would be required
• anaerobic media would be required
• More regular additions of phosphate
• Possible assimilation rate 16:1 to 25:1

3. Carbon dosing (from macro algae’s carbohydrates)

• Protein skimmer would be required
• Anaerobic media (not sure)
• less phosphate demand
• possible assimilation rate 160:1 to 250:1

Hope it helps

Im torn to even deviate here as there is a ton of related discussion here as my build is a direct tie in. Please pardon any perceived side tracking…

Basically the entire design is dependent on some unanswered questions, many are derivative of each other…

Dunning-Krueger is in full effect here, I have way more questions than education/expertise

1. Can you even have a illuminated body of water without algae interference? If so, at what purity?
2. What exactly constitutes “reef grade” clean water anyway? What metrics/measurables/compunds are involved? Is it some level of phosphates, nitrates or both? Are any “nitrogens”growth inhibitors and at what levels?
3. Can you even grow coral without fish. Is there some difference between pure dosed ammonia vs fish poop? Or is there some trace element or trophic level advantage in feeding fish first, then feeding the corals? Derivative of that, why dose ammonia at all, why not just feed more, or is it in the precision?
4. Is there anyway possible to manage algae without either a CUC or competing algae reactor/ refugium? Would this be a spot for dosing Algaefix ( and is it even harmful to stony corals?)
5. Can you manage nitrogen with minimal bacterial attachment sites and in a “coral only” setup; is having a bacterial nitrogen processing setup even necessary? Can we crow corals in a “Liquid suspension” so to speak?

I got a ton more loaded, you get the picture..It goes on….

 

[sixty_reefer]

Im torn to even deviate here as there is a ton of related discussion here as my build is a direct tie in. Please pardon any perceived side tracking…

Basically the entire design is dependent on some unanswered questions, many are derivative of each other…

Dunning-Krueger is in full effect here, I have way more questions than education/expertise

1. Can you even have a illuminated body of water without algae interference? If so, at what purity?
2. What exactly constitutes “reef grade” clean water anyway? What metrics/measurables/compunds are involved? Is it some level of phosphates, nitrates or both? Are any “nitrogens”growth inhibitors and at what levels?
3. Can you even grow coral without fish. Is there some difference between pure dosed ammonia vs fish poop? Or is there some trace element or trophic level advantage in feeding fish first, then feeding the corals? Derivative of that, why dose ammonia at all, why not just feed more, or is it in the precision?
4. Is there anyway possible to manage algae without either a CUC or competing algae reactor/ refugium? Would this be a spot for dosing Algaefix ( and is it even harmful to stony corals?)
5. Can you manage nitrogen with minimal bacterial attachment sites and in a “coral only” setup; is having a bacterial nitrogen processing setup even necessary? Can we crow corals in a “Liquid suspension” so to speak?

I got a ton more loaded, you get the picture..It goes on….

It’s probably best to discuss that in a different thread.

 

[Dan_P]

This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Ammonia is Your Friend!. Please add to the discussion here.

You haven’t lost the touch for creating interesting and informative articles. I don’t know that ammonia is my friend but I do pity its inability to decide whether it wants to be ionic or neutral. Whatever happened to the days when molecules were either ionic or neutral?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Having read that Ammonia ‘gasses off’ from a solution, how long will a solution stay viable for in a sealed dosing container, with only a pinhole to allow air in? I’m looking at making the solution at 3x strength (60g / 1000ml), 1.5L at a time. This will give 35 days worth for me, assuming my calculations are correct for my daily consumption of Nitrate from Potassium Nitrate being 0.84ppm?

I expect it is fine for as long as you will use it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You haven’t lost the touch for creating interesting and informative articles. I don’t know that ammonia is my friend but I do pity its inability to decide whether it wants to be ionic or neutral. Whatever happened to the days when molecules were either ionic or neutral?

I don't know why, but your post reminds me of an add I saw on TV last night that literally had me cracking up. It was some sort of beauty product that included "micro molecules". They literally wrote out those words on the screen. Macromolecules is certainly a common term (polymers, typically), but micro molecules? That means really small molecules? Like what? water? Not many are smaller than water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I read and re-read this


Pardon the summons @Randy Holmes-Farley

But I am about to order…
Which one of these hobby grade test kits fits the bill? (Fully realizing you may not have a clue about the particulars of each one but also assuming you know more about them than myself)

Salifert
ASF
Fritz
Hanna
Red Sea

I don't offhand know what all these use, but one can gauge what they use by the colors formed. I think Nessler is likely out of favor due to the mercury toxicity, but those are yellow to orange to brown with ammonia. Salicylate tests are yellow to green.

If you google images of ammonia test kit results, you can see the colors. For example, API, yellow to green, so its a salicylate test:

 

[Dan_P]

I don't know why, but your post reminds me of an add I saw on TV last night that literally had me cracking up. It was some sort of beauty product that included "micro molecules". They literally wrote out those words on the screen. Macromolecules is certainly a common term (polymers, typically), but micro molecules? That means really small molecules? Like what? water? Not many are smaller than water.

Well, if micro molecules refers to water, at least you know you are buying a placebo product. You couldn’t complain that the manufacturer was selling snake oil. They were very upfront with you

 

[brandon429]

My reef has been fallow for 19 years. For the first time I can see a use for aquabiomics testing to show clades present. There is zero algae in my system, it's been blasted with 35% peroxide uncountable times

Any claims of photosynthetic uptake of ammonia will be required to be handled by completely microscopic organisms that never grow big enough for me to cull and export, like an ats harvest



So it's the harshest possible test for the nitrifer theory, plus I'll rate my systems coral mass per gallon higher than any other reef as well since it's one gallon completely full of lps and sps

I'll bet: no statistical difference to any other normal reef. I think we can't starve nitrifers out of any system without meds. I think they're inherently linked to any wet surface * and it may not be proper nitrosomonas etc
Several clades will take up ammonia, nobody cares which clade they are as long as results are predictable.

One of my live rocks should be ab tested.

 

[Dan_P]

My reef has been fallow for 19 years. For the first time I can see a use for aquabiomics testing to show clades present. There is zero algae in my system, it's been blasted with 35% peroxide uncountable times

So it's the harshest possible test for the nitrifer theory, plus I'll rate my systems coral mass per gallon higher than any other reef as well since it's one gallon completely full of lps and sps

I'll bet: no statistical difference to any other normal reef. I think we can't starve nitrifers out of any system without meds.

What have you been feeding it?

 

[brandon429]

Exactly this the whole time: cyclopeeze first 6 or so years, reef nutrition refrigerated roti pods for about a decade and then this last three years was solely benepets powdered feed.

Fed sparingly vs heavily. I did Randy's ammonia additions several times just testing coloration and polyp extension

 

[DaScubaSteve]

Anyone else noticing a DKH drop when using Ammonia, I started using it for a bout a week or two and always notice a drop in alkalinity after dosing on my afternoon test. In the morning ill be at 7.5dkh dose around 9 am and at 12pm ill be at 7.2. Either the corals are using more alk because they like the ammonia and are growing or the ammonia drops it or both.