Bacteria...let's really start understanding them! part one

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 23, 2020

MnFish1 said:
I use an oxydator - I do not use it to 'kill bacteria' or 'kill anything' - the concentration that anyone is using would seem to be far too low to 'kill anything' - unless its direct contact (i.e. sprayed directly onto algae, etc). Is there really a thinking/concept out there that aside from increasing dissolved O2 - some - that there is another benefit to H2O2? H2O2 when exposed to organics and even light - rapidly decomposes to O2 and H2O - I cannot conceive it floating around the tank - killing bacteria on rocks or anywhere else Right?

The local concentration is high in the spot where it is actually added.

I personally suspect that may be why ORP declines when adding a material that should raise ORP: because it kills bacteria locally in the water and they spill their low ORP guts.

MnFish1 · Dec 24, 2020

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
The local concentration is high in the spot where it is actually added.

I personally suspect that may be why ORP declines when adding a material that should raise ORP: because it kills bacteria locally in the water and they spill their low ORP guts.

Could be - I was just saying that unlike if you added lets say methylene blue to a tank - it would be dispersed throughout the tank - I'm not sure H2O2 would be (i.e. it would rapidly be degraded locally?)

tvan · Dec 24, 2020

A simple truth, if you add something living to your tank you get diversity(bacteria included). If your environment can't support that diversity it dies off. If you chuck things into that environment you have just changed it! And if you don't understand what you are adding, you won't understand the full impact on your environment(reef tank).
Merry Christmas..
:)

pseudorand · Dec 24, 2020

flampton said:
Well I’ve been on here for a month or two and I've found a really heavy misunderstanding of bacteria in the aquarium and what they're actually useful for. This is NOT another cycling thread! None of this is opinion unless I say IMO.

First before I begin I'll introduce myself. I have loved aquariums for a long time and my first tank was a 55g saltwater with a undergravel filter and dead coral skeletons. Haha that dates me a little bit. After growing up a bit more I received my masters and PhD in microbiology. My focus has been in the genetics and physiology of Gram-negative human pathogens. My focus has always been in this area because that's where the real edgey science is done. And in case you wondering its not because I think other microbiological fields can't do the top of the line science it is just that they don't have the money that we do.

Again back on topic. I'm going to break this down beginner style.

Okay first I need to introduce what bacteria are and eventually get to why certain bacterial 'types' are the most important in your aquarium. Second I need to introduce the most important concept upfront and that is if someone refers to bacteria you need to know what they're talking about. Why? Well just referring to something as a bacteria is unfortunately meaningless. That's like a doctor treating a human with malaria and then later telling her significant other that she was trying to kill one eukaryote to save the other eukaryote. Technically true but doesn't actually say much...

So for this first topic I'm only going to talk about how bacteria in our aquariums utilize their environment to make energy and acquire carbon.

Let us start with the easiest to understand. That is the
1. Chemoorganoheterotroph -these derive energy from breaking down various organic carbons and they acquire their carbon from these sources as well (they need to eat things). This population is dependent on you feeding the aquarium organic carbon, i.e. food)

2. Chemoautotrophs- these derive energy from the oxidation of electron donors in their environment and acquire carbon through fixing CO2. (Fixing CO2 is when an organism can take CO2 and make sugars from it)

3. Photoautotrophs- these derive energy from light and acquire carbon through fixation.

4. Photoheterotrophs- these derive energy from light and acquire carbon from organic sources.

And if this wasn't confusing enough these categories are not always fixed, as some organisms may switch categories under different environmental conditions.

Phew....Now let us start placing the various bacteria mentioned on the forums into categories.

Chemoorganoheterotrophs- The bacteria that utilize this methodology are the MOST abundant organisms in your aquarium. They're everywhere, on your rocks, in your rocks, in your water column, on your animals, in your animals. Everywhere! Now are they good, bad, indifferent for your aquarium? Well depends, haha! As this category is so diverse in this article I'll just break it down to the two main players we are interested in...

Bacterial pathogens- these feed on an animal you care about. In anthropomorphic terms these are bad guys. They hopefully will be in low abundance in the aquarium.

Bacterial pathogens part two- these feed on an organism you don't like... ;)

'decaying' bacteria- these are the guys who break large 'dead' organics down to small organics. Basically they are by far the number one clean up crew in your tank. Any organic carbon that's not utilized by another animal in your tank these bacteria will eventually digest. I know you think you feed well but some way or another these bacteria will get a major piece of that pie. These are great until you have too many. These types of bacteria are sold in stores.

Okay now chemoautotrophs- This is the most well known on this board because this is were the so called cycling bacteria reside. The two basic types are the nitrifiers. They're found on the surfaces of the aquarium that have access to O2. When I discuss nitrogen in the next article I'll discuss how they fit into the dynamics of a cycling and a well established aquarium. These are also sold in stores.

Photoautotrophs- these are your favorite because this is where we find the cyanobacteria. These guys play an important role in your tanks food chain but access to high nutrients and low predators will cause blooms as you all are aware. They bring more carbon into your aquarium through fixation of CO2. They also produce oxygen by removing hydrogen from water molecules. Don't know anyone who sells cyanobacteria.

Photoheterotrophs-. These guys aren't talked about much. They're in your tank though and they play less of a role in the aquarium. They'll help with decay of organics as well. I know of at least one product that has a strain. Not an advertisement but as far as I am aware only one product, PNS probio, contains a photoheterotrophic strain.

Okay phew... Please let me know if the above helps you :D My next article will talk about carbon, nitrogen and phosphate flux in the aquarium in relation to the bacteria in your tank. If you have questions let me know below. If you see a mistake let me know as well.

Thanks for reading this far!
Eric

Edit:: haha I forgot to mention what bacteria are. They're single celled organisms that lack a nucleus of the domain bacteria. They can also be referred to as prokaryotes. We are eukaryotes- we have a nucleus. Sorry about that.

Thank you, and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next installment.

However, while the science is very interesting, I ultimately want practical advice. How do I use this info to address cyano, GHA, bubble algae, ich, low copopods populations, bleaching or colorless corals, etc. And I'm not going to buy a microscope or lab-grade test kits.

To be fair, I've said "I'm not going to buy..." about a lot of things now attached to or stored under my tank. But if I need to buy a microscope, I at least need to know that I'll be able to recognize what I'm looking at without years of practice.

SMSREEF · Dec 24, 2020

pseudorand said:
Thank you, and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the next installment.

However, while the science is very interesting, I ultimately want practical advice. How do I use this info to address cyano, GHA, bubble algae, ich, low copopods populations, bleaching or colorless corals, etc. And I'm not going to buy a microscope or lab-grade test kits.

To be fair, I've said "I'm not going to buy..." about a lot of things now attached to or stored under my tank. But if I need to buy a microscope, I at least need to know that I'll be able to recognize what I'm looking at without years of practice.

Microscopes come in pretty handy. You can buy one for less than most coral frags or the other things stored under your tank.

there are plenty of ID guides. And if you can’t get the answer yourself, you will get a much better answer on R2R with a microscope pic/video.

rmurken · Dec 24, 2020

I’m a no on using peroxide in a tank. Outside the tank system, as a topical or a dip, go crazy. But H202 is just an indiscriminate oxidizer. I don’t know what benefit would outweigh the risk of adding it to the water column.

Anecdote: I once used 3% H2O2 to try to knock out some black beard algae in a FW tank. I used it in the tank, so the peroxide wound up in the water column. The tank was tiny (10G) and I used a few ml of peroxide. No more than 10.

Tank was well-maintained, and mature. But what do you know...I got detectable ammonia and NO2 a day or two later.

Everything settled back down, and there were no deaths or obvious morbidity. But I have a strong suspicion that I put a dent in the biofilter with the peroxide.

brandon429 · Dec 25, 2020

Not in a marine tank though, here’s ten years of proof case closed.
Peroxide does not harm a marine biofilter any more than a large water change, skimming, UV or dosing chemi clean would.

bacteria are killed by any action we take in reefing, but there isn’t a consequence or that action fades out of practice. Peroxide is now a permanent tool to be used in and on reefs, with no thanks to chemistry predictors I might add :) (gloom always forecasted) thanks to work threads a practical side appears

53 pages 100% added into the water

Dinoflagellates my experience......h2o2 reefing tool!!!!!

aaaaaaarrrrrrr just wanted to share my recent battle and how i won!!!!!!!!! "i wish i took pics but i didn't..:(" so about 3 weeks ago my tank broke out pretty bad i mean bad!!!!!! my coast to coast overflow would get plugged and almost overflow my tank..... so i did my research and found...

www.reef2reef.com

what do reported patterns show there

60 pages about half are water doses, massive overdoses are logged and tracked for biofiltration

pico reef pest algae problem challenge - Reef Central Online Community

pico reef pest algae problem challenge Nano Reefs

www.reefcentral.com

60 more pages diff forum

Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

www.nano-reef.com

patterns are the same across all of reefdom
I have three more of these. Literally I think we are up to a million tracked doses.

to know what peroxide does we can consult work threads

GlassMunky · Dec 25, 2020

brandon429 said:
Not in a marine tank though, here’s ten years of proof case closed.
Peroxide does not harm a biofilter any more than a large water change, skimming, UV or dosing chemi clean would.

53 pages 100% added into the water

Dinoflagellates my experience......h2o2 reefing tool!!!!!

aaaaaaarrrrrrr just wanted to share my recent battle and how i won!!!!!!!!! "i wish i took pics but i didn't..:(" so about 3 weeks ago my tank broke out pretty bad i mean bad!!!!!! my coast to coast overflow would get plugged and almost overflow my tank..... so i did my research and found...

www.reef2reef.com

what do reported patterns show there

60 pages about half are water doses, massive overdoses are logged and tracked for biofiltration

pico reef pest algae problem challenge - Reef Central Online Community

pico reef pest algae problem challenge Nano Reefs

www.reefcentral.com

60 more pages diff forum

Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

www.nano-reef.com

see now patterns are the same across all of reefdom
I have three more of these. Literally I think we are up to a million tracked doses.

In science, correlation does not equal causation. Just throwing a ton of anecdotal evidence means nothing. Put forth actual scientific studies with a control or it’s just as useless as all the people parroting conflicting info here online.

brandon429 · Dec 25, 2020

False, tanks would be dead and you have not one page of contributions to the matter, armchair safe zoner lol

so you think we lucked into all that logged work

predicted the outcomes before the event-years logged

or seneye tracking peroxide additions and nothing changes

heres another prediction for 2021: you contribute zero patterns for inspection other than words. Not any actual reefs on the line for you to be accountable

one day someone with legit offers to help in reefing will test peroxide on biofilms etc, and their findings will be in line with above. They won’t be able to post: the filter is dead- Due to what’s logged above we have some expected outcomes on file.

hit ignore button

GlassMunky · Dec 25, 2020

brandon429 said:
False, tanks would be dead and you have not one page of contributions to the matter, armchair safe zoner lol

so you think we lucked into all that logged work

did you see how we predicted the outcomes before the event

or seneye tracking peroxide additions and nothing changes

you are on my ignore list for a reason, low reef contributions high speculation habit, I shouldn’t have clicked read anyway knowing you have zero work to show, literally none.
Add me to your ignore list, we will be all set.

heres another prediction for 2021: you contribute zero patterns for inspection other than words. Not any actual reefs on the line for you to be accountable, just like this year :) and the one before and the one before that - easy patterns stands out

You clearly don’t understand science. But ok tough guy. Also maybe learn to speak and write properly.

brandon429 · Dec 25, 2020

Ok all set. Add me to your ignore list. When I read your posts here or on other threads it’s always just poking and picking, I don’t get new material or new directions from your offers, or new approaches you wanted to show

or new findings

or see people you earnestly try to help, with outcomes

or see you dig into a problem post, then stay there until it’s completed then eight months follow up logged with pics. Why don’t u do any of those things, it’s so fun?

when I’m in the chemistry forum I’m looking for new material to learn, to have my patterns challenged with better patterns on file, and to be crushed by chemists when making bad inferences and takeaways. work threads provide a little balance on bad v good inferences

let’s hit ignore that’s best option for you.

brandon429 · Dec 25, 2020

@rmurken

I do agree it’s a total burn for the whole system when dosed, no doubt. The work patterns appear to shed light on the lethality / rebound ability / big picture for marine settings, overall harm vs actual good done despite the burn

reef water is chock full of mixed bacteria (source, work thread where we cycle an all dry system in 20 days by running only old tank water through it) so to expect instant lysing of cells not insulated in floc and scum layers makes great sense. The instant orp drop shows a strong action

but were surfaces impacted? fair to say the data makes a reasonable case surfaces aren’t impacted in ways we can measure.

some of our tanks are twenty thousand dollar sps reefs with ten year old clams, lots $ on the line with the doses.

also agreed freshwater impacts may vary wildly. I do not have handy four hundred pages of planted tank doses, nitrite shifts alone may kill or stress those (such opposing chemistry vs marine) I’m not sure.

to use peroxide to cheat burn invasions is certainly an unnatural cheat and to aim to reef without it is an ideal goal agreed. People keep arriving at the point they need it though, that demand remains.

and in the years and pages of algae battles, microbiology information also stands out clearly.

without work threads and different findings than formulas show on paper we would not have an accurate or fair meter to even begin evaluation of peroxide in a reef tank. TMZ’s firm rule that it kills everything would still stand. We can see that’s no where near the truth, we save tanks using it every day. New job just started in the nuisance algae forum, even if Gator overdoses his biofilter will not be harmed, it’s why we don’t even discuss the risk, there isn’t one. The risk we can see is to lysmata shrimps and decorative macroalgae per logged patterns discerned in the work threads.

relevance of peroxide rant to this thread: we have no big picture idea how peroxide affects bacteria in a reef tank, only snippets of truth, whole truth tbd. after ten years of online anecdotes, thats the data available. If someone wanted to make formal studies on the matter I’m the first reader signed up to learn

MnFish1 · Dec 25, 2020

brandon429 said:
@rmurken

I do agree it’s a total burn for the whole system when dosed, no doubt. The work patterns appear to shed light on the lethality / rebound ability / big picture for marine settings, overall harm vs actual good done despite the burn

reef water is chock full of mixed bacteria (source, work thread where we cycle an all dry system in 20 days by running only old tank water through it) so to expect instant lysing of cells not insulated in floc and scum layers makes great sense. The instant orp drop shows a strong action

but were surfaces impacted? fair to say the data makes a reasonable case surfaces aren’t impacted in ways we can measure.

some of our tanks are twenty thousand dollar sps reefs with ten year old clams, lots $ on the line with the doses.

also agreed freshwater impacts may vary wildly. I do not have handy four hundred pages of planted tank doses, nitrite shifts alone may kill or stress those (such opposing chemistry vs marine) I’m not sure.

to use peroxide to cheat burn invasions is certainly an unnatural cheat and to aim to reef without it is an ideal goal agreed. People keep arriving at the point they need it though, that demand remains.

and in the years and pages of algae battles, microbiology information also stands out clearly.

without work threads and different findings than formulas show on paper we would not have an accurate or fair meter to even begin evaluation of peroxide in a reef tank. TMZ’s firm rule that it kills everything would still stand. We can see that’s no where near the truth, we save tanks using it every day. New job just started in the nuisance algae forum, even if Gator overdoses his biofilter will not be harmed, it’s why we don’t even discuss the risk, there isn’t one. The risk we can see is to lysmata shrimps and decorative macroalgae per logged patterns discerned in the work threads.

relevance of peroxide rant to this thread: we have no big picture idea how peroxide affects bacteria in a reef tank, only snippets of truth, whole truth tbd. after ten years of online anecdotes, thats the data available. If someone wanted to make formal studies on the matter I’m the first reader signed up to learn

Part of the 'problem' - is are you talking about H2O2 - directed at Algae directly? Or taking a rock out - and dipping it in H2O2 to kill algae? If so - unless you are exposing every surface in the tank to the same level as the rock/rocks - of course you will not kill all the bacteria. If you are talking about dosing H2O2 - lets say in the sump - which is then spread through the tank - thats a different discussion. IMHO - in that case the benefits are increased oxygen. In the first case - the benefit is that whatever is contacted by the H2O2 is killed. But - there is no way - that unless you literally drowned the rock in H2O2 - for a long while - that every bacteria in that rock would be killed. most likely - only surface film, contaminants, bacteria would cause the degradation of H2O2 - I guess I think I'm not clear where this is going - I thought we were talking about catalase lol)

brandon429 · Dec 25, 2020

took role of peroxide defender a sec/ rewind /

yes the details behind catalase vs general destruction were good to read i hadn't seen any material on it in a long time. Lps vs rock surface cell density is good a context to understand why bubbling seems zonated in our systems

When Flampton mentioned Ulva as a specialist among enzyme makers something came to mind: we already consider Ulva for pages as the weakest most easily treatable invasion for our cheat kill, the slightest bit of peroxide even dosed into the tank kills it really well. one pass typically. It has the least tolerance level among our logged invaders, can be a real problem for some they'll alter params for months to try and starve it

Or dose fluconazole and it doesn't work

but we get lucky: it's literally no problem to wipe out with careful peroxide dosing into the water, possibly has lower defenses due to those different enzymes stated. That and being paper thin

This page here was a couple Ulva jobs showing utter buzzsawing from us while preserving live rock pigmentation and benthic life:

Reef2Reef Pest algae challenge thread hydrogen peroxide

Tank filled and was almost cloudless :D Turned on the klir roller and added a filter sock and it was clear in 2 hours. Made a makeshift frag rack as I cannot bring all rock back. Scrubbed each frag plug with a stainless steel brush or remounted depending how bad the plug was. Grabbed a couple...

www.reef2reef.com

peroxide was a neat entrant into this thread because it's such a polarizing substance

to humans lol

it's darn sure affecting bacteria but exactly how and at what price vs benefit is yet to be seen. We are able to command compliance with it, so I'll still call peroxide the single best off the books reefing trick I've ever seen.

It has applications in reefing because we are able to list its projected kills vs nonsensitives when dosed into full running reefs and as spot treatments

we dont get much reaction even from fish. one would think acting normal means they’re not being burned, same for free ammonia claims...
I think that biofilters doing fine, fish doing fine at calculated doses, really stands out as a paradox and gives small insights into what peroxide is doing at the bacterial level. peroxide is handy for showing us how powerful filter bacteria biofilms are

MnFish1 · Dec 25, 2020

brandon429 said:
took role of peroxide defender a sec/ rewind /

yes the details behind catalase vs general destruction were good to read i hadn't seen any material on it in a long time. Lps vs rock surface cell density is good a context to understand why bubbling seems zonated in our systems

When Flampton mentioned Ulva as a specialist among enzyme makers something came to mind: we already consider Ulva for pages as the weakest most easily treatable invasion for our cheat kill, the slightest bit of peroxide even dosed into the tank kills it really well. one pass typically. It has the least tolerance level among our logged invaders, can be a real problem for some they'll alter params for months to try and starve it

Or dose fluconazole and it doesn't work

but we get lucky: it's literally no problem to wipe out with careful peroxide dosing into the water, possibly has lower defenses due to those different enzymes stated. That and being paper thin

This page here was a couple Ulva jobs showing utter buzzsawing from us while preserving live rock pigmentation and benthic life:

Reef2Reef Pest algae challenge thread hydrogen peroxide

Tank filled and was almost cloudless :D Turned on the klir roller and added a filter sock and it was clear in 2 hours. Made a makeshift frag rack as I cannot bring all rock back. Scrubbed each frag plug with a stainless steel brush or remounted depending how bad the plug was. Grabbed a couple...

www.reef2reef.com

peroxide was a neat entrant into this thread because it's such a polarizing substance

to humans lol

it's darn sure affecting bacteria but exactly how and at what price vs benefit is yet to be seen. We are able to command compliance with it, so I'll still call peroxide the single best off the books reefing trick I've ever seen. It has applications in reefing because we are able to list its limitations even when dosed into full running reefs

Like I think I though - this is more for direct contact with peroxide - and in this case also 'scrubbing'. I'm not sure this is that helpful - for what we are talking about - but maybe I dont know what we're talking about

brandon429 · Dec 25, 2020

The thread had died, I kicked it up with general peroxide musings, you all covered catalase signaling all set

Peroxide calculation

Did you have to leave the UV on for the dinos to stay away, or were you able to turn it off and have them remain gone?

www.reef2reef.com

thats worthy because if polled, every poster in this thread would have said Cory could not attain those levels, then he did. wanted to add in how peroxide work threads keep moving the boundaries out faster than we thought possible.

no loss of biofilter, amazing. 35% h202 at astounding levels. A study in biofilter resilience

people who study bacteria have to be amazed that the rules are this flexible. our bacteria are protected in amazing ways yet to be defined, in a thread about bacteria. Seemed fitting subject material.

MnFish1 · Dec 26, 2020

brandon429 said:
The thread had died, I kicked it up with general peroxide musings, you all covered catalase signaling all set

Peroxide calculation

Did you have to leave the UV on for the dinos to stay away, or were you able to turn it off and have them remain gone?

www.reef2reef.com

thats worthy because if polled, every poster in this thread would have said Cory could not attain those levels, then he did. wanted to add in how peroxide work threads keep moving the boundaries out faster than we thought possible.

no loss of biofilter, amazing. 35% h202 at astounding levels. A study in biofilter resilience

people who study bacteria have to be amazed that the rules are this flexible. our bacteria are protected in amazing ways yet to be defined, in a thread about bacteria. Seemed fitting subject material.

Clearly you're correct - I mean bacteria can live in boiling hot springs (certain types) - the advantage bacteria have - is that even if 90 percent are killed - they rapidly recover. Can you give details of the 35% h2O2 - so people dont have to read through several pages (just a quick summary - thanks)

brandon429 · Dec 26, 2020

Thankfully this ones only two pages

Taricha found his percentages quickly, fifty times normal dose

65 mls of 35% h202 in 120 gallons

‘Congrats! That's the highest h2o2 dose I've ever heard of.
1mL / 10 gallons of 3% is a common conservative dose.
You're at 5ml / 10 gallons of 35%, so >50x that common dose.
Would love to read your observations on how it goes. Any chance you could measure ORP?’

it’s a neat way to round out a brief review of peroxide in today’s reefs, it’s use is expanding not contracting as a pattern from posts

SMSREEF · Dec 26, 2020

brandon429 said:
Thankfully this ones only two pages

Taricha found his percentages quickly, fifty times normal dose

65 mls of 35% h202 in 120 gallons

‘Congrats! That's the highest h2o2 dose I've ever heard of.
1mL / 10 gallons of 3% is a common conservative dose.
You're at 5ml / 10 gallons of 35%, so >50x that common dose.
Would love to read your observations on how it goes. Any chance you could measure ORP?’

it’s a neat way to round out a brief review of peroxide in today’s reefs, it’s use is expanding not contracting as a pattern from posts

It would be really helpful if we used a calculator that others can use to copy based on their system.

Honestly at first this seemed like a huge dose, but in the calculator it seems to be less than 50ppm. https://www.indigoinstruments.com/sanitizer-dilution-calculator.php

I have seen 75 and 150 ppm used to kill fish parasites in a 5-10 minute dip. Not sure what ppm is needed to kill unwanted algae/bacteria/parasites in the tank or how fast it degrades to H and O2.

brandon429 · Dec 26, 2020

Let’s see any other thread dosing 35% at this rate, to check for patterning

really am curious if this is common in fish disease controls etc

it is highly, highly uncommon to be dosing 35% at this rate, Corys non update of pics and status has some concern. No closure yet