Balancing phosphates

[B-ridge]

I would like to know how everyone balances there po4 and keep it stable.
For the past week I’ve been dealing with 0 phosphates according to the Hanna phosphate checker. I turned gfo and carbon reactor off to see if po4 would rise. It didn’t. I then fed more over the last 3-4 days. Increasing feedings from 1-2 a day to 3-4 a day. Po4 was still at 0. I was told to turn skimmer off during the day and turn back on at night. I did that for 2 days plus added some flake food. Checked my po4 and it read 0.20 on the Hanna checker. Now I would like to keep my po4 at a respectable level. Definitely higher than 0 but lower than 0.05. Now one would think to turn gfo reactor back on. If I do that it will cause my po4 to go back to 0 and I’m at square one again. Name of the game is stability. Having po4 jump up and down, up and down is not stable.
Any tips or suggestions are highly welcomed.

 

[Oshanickreef]

You should try to make little changes. Big swings like that can really hurt certain corals. Adjust the gfo flow instead of turning it off/on. Also you will need to test your nitrates as well because they go hand in hand. Balance your nitrates and phosphates and you will be successful.

Just feed the same amount of frozen daily and test (before feeding & at the same time of day). Try to mix up your foods. I use various supplements like selcon, fuel, reef roids, etc.. if you test and your nutrients are still low then add a bit more food to your daily dose. I try to keep my p04 at .03-.08 and nitrates always hover around 2. I do notice my nitrates sometimes drop to zero so I have been dosing a sodium nitrate solution to keep my nitrates up.

All tanks are different and you will need to experiment with your system to figure it out. Just note that you can have high p04 and high nitrate and your corals will be okay. If one is high and the other is low, then we will start to have algae issues and corals don’t like it when no3 and p04 are not balanced. Both can be high or both can be low.... but not too low! If at any time your nutrients are zero you must feed and maybe turn your gfo down a bit.

Finding the balance is difficult but once you do it will pay off! I write everything down in a notebook and it really helps.

 

[B-ridge]

Thanks for your feedback. It was very informative. I forgot to mention my nitrates are between 10-25. The salifert color chart looks 25 when looking from the top down. When looking from the side as they suggest for low test the color seems to be 100. Divide that by 10 according to there directions and it’s 10
You are correct. I am dealing with dinos. So that’s gonns be another issue by itself

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

one is high and the other is low, then we will start to have algae issues and corals don’t like it when no3 and p04 are not

This is not true or correct.

 

[SPR1968]

The Hanna ULR phosphate checker (if that’s what your using) has a margin of error of +/- 0.03 or 4% at 25c, so if your feeding and have a reasonable bioload although possible, your unlikely to actually have 0 phosphate despite what the checker says.

I also use Hanna, and if it reads 0 I am more than happy with that and I never turn off the rhowaphos reactor. My target of 0.03 ish is not much higher than 0 by hobby grade kit standards

 

[vetteguy53081]

I used Gfo in a nylon mesh. It worked but be careful on amount used. I filled mesh bag and two of my SPS list tissue within 24 hrs

 

[Oshanickreef]

This is not true or correct.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[sghera64]

I would like to know how everyone balances there po4 and keep it stable.
For the past week I’ve been dealing with 0 phosphates according to the Hanna phosphate checker. I turned gfo and carbon reactor off to see if po4 would rise. It didn’t. I then fed more over the last 3-4 days. Increasing feedings from 1-2 a day to 3-4 a day. Po4 was still at 0. I was told to turn skimmer off during the day and turn back on at night. I did that for 2 days plus added some flake food. Checked my po4 and it read 0.20 on the Hanna checker. Now I would like to keep my po4 at a respectable level. Definitely higher than 0 but lower than 0.05. Now one would think to turn gfo reactor back on. If I do that it will cause my po4 to go back to 0 and I’m at square one again. Name of the game is stability. Having po4 jump up and down, up and down is not stable.
Any tips or suggestions are highly welcomed.

As mentioned above, the Hanna ULR might say zero and you likely have maybe 3ppb-Pi (9ppb-PO4) - - or you might have closer to zero, we don’t know. As you said, stability is the key.

So should you worry or try to “fix” your numbers? Well, are you seeing any problems with algae, bacteria (cyano) or corals? If not, then all is well.


If there are problems, I for one would like to know more about your system:
1.) Age of system
2.) Sand or bare bottom
3.) Filter socks, refugium, algae scrubbers?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thank you for explaining.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/po4-and-no3-imbalance.467244/#post-5198917

 

[B-ridge]

I don’t have the ulr phosphorous checker I have the regular phosphate checker.
My tank is 240 gallons plumbed into a 125 gallon sump and 75 gallon fuge. Tank has been up and running for 7-8 years. It was broken down last year do to a real bad ich infestation. Rocks were cleaned with muriatic acid. Sand was thrown out and replaced. Water was completely replaced. So in other words a brand new restart. Tank was set up and cycled for 4-5 months. In sump I have a reef octopus 5000 int skimmer. In fuge I have nothing. Tried chaeto and it died as well as 8 other macro algae I bought off e bay.
I recently had a issue with red cyano. Used Chemiclean and it cleaned it out. After Chemiclean but before water change I vacuumed/siphoned sand and turkey blasted rocks. This caused major hair algae and bryopsis I then used fluconazole which cleaned up hair algae and bryopsis. As well as help from tangs and snails. I then started to develop bluish-greenish cyano. But while treating with fluconazole I had both my reactors running gfo from fear of po4 rising do to the die off. I siphoned out as much as the bluish-greenish cyano as I could. Around this time I started developing dinos and possibly diatoms. Sand got brown. And I also had some brownish snot looking stuff on sand bed and rocks and mainly around corals.
I don’t use filter socks but I did use them during treatment of flucanozole. The bluish-greenish cyano is gone but I still have the brown sand and snot like substance. I did dose 30ml of microbacter7 5 days ago. And again 2 days ago. Last night was the first time I checked and po4 was not 0. It was 0.20. I would like to get it above 0 but no more than 0.05

 

[Oshanickreef]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/po4-and-no3-imbalance.467244/#post-5198917

Not an explanation

 

[sghera64]

I don’t have the ulr phosphorous checker I have the regular phosphate checker.
My tank is 240 gallons plumbed into a 125 gallon sump and 75 gallon fuge. Tank has been up and running for 7-8 years. It was broken down last year do to a real bad ich infestation. Rocks were cleaned with muriatic acid. Sand was thrown out and replaced. Water was completely replaced. So in other words a brand new restart. Tank was set up and cycled for 4-5 months. In sump I have a reef octopus 5000 int skimmer. In fuge I have nothing. Tried chaeto and it died as well as 8 other macro algae I bought off e bay.
I recently had a issue with red cyano. Used Chemiclean and it cleaned it out. After Chemiclean but before water change I vacuumed/siphoned sand and turkey blasted rocks. This caused major hair algae and bryopsis I then used fluconazole which cleaned up hair algae and bryopsis. As well as help from tangs and snails. I then started to develop bluish-greenish cyano. But while treating with fluconazole I had both my reactors running gfo from fear of po4 rising do to the die off. I siphoned out as much as the bluish-greenish cyano as I could. Around this time I started developing dinos and possibly diatoms. Sand got brown. And I also had some brownish snot looking stuff on sand bed and rocks and mainly around corals.
I don’t use filter socks but I did use them during treatment of flucanozole. The bluish-greenish cyano is gone but I still have the brown sand and snot like substance. I did dose 30ml of microbacter7 5 days ago. And again 2 days ago. Last night was the first time I checked and po4 was not 0. It was 0.20. I would like to get it above 0 but no more than 0.05

Ah, that helps a lot!


Just a thought, but perhaps the balance you seek is not chemical, but biodiversity. Perhaps adding some bacterial cultures would put compete the nasties you see. I’m trying this now with Vibrant for Reefs and it is knocking my GHA way down. I am also feeding about half the recommended dose of vinegar. My cyano has been receding so I feel on to something in my case.

 

[B-ridge]

I actually tried vibrant before I starting using fluconazole. Was dosing 60ml every Tuesday. I did that twice. I was also dosing microbacter7 at the recommended dosage for 14 days. I only got to day 7 before I stopped and did the fluconazole. Dosing one or the other or both is what brought in the cyano I believe.
I forgot to mention my nitrates are between 10-25. 10 if divided by 100 looking at side. 25 if I’m looking straight down

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I don’t have the ulr phosphorous checker I have the regular phosphate checker.
My tank is 240 gallons plumbed into a 125 gallon sump and 75 gallon fuge. Tank has been up and running for 7-8 years. It was broken down last year do to a real bad ich infestation. Rocks were cleaned with muriatic acid. Sand was thrown out and replaced. Water was completely replaced. So in other words a brand new restart. Tank was set up and cycled for 4-5 months. In sump I have a reef octopus 5000 int skimmer. In fuge I have nothing. Tried chaeto and it died as well as 8 other macro algae I bought off e bay.
I recently had a issue with red cyano. Used Chemiclean and it cleaned it out. After Chemiclean but before water change I vacuumed/siphoned sand and turkey blasted rocks. This caused major hair algae and bryopsis I then used fluconazole which cleaned up hair algae and bryopsis. As well as help from tangs and snails. I then started to develop bluish-greenish cyano. But while treating with fluconazole I had both my reactors running gfo from fear of po4 rising do to the die off. I siphoned out as much as the bluish-greenish cyano as I could. Around this time I started developing dinos and possibly diatoms. Sand got brown. And I also had some brownish snot looking stuff on sand bed and rocks and mainly around corals.
I don’t use filter socks but I did use them during treatment of flucanozole. The bluish-greenish cyano is gone but I still have the brown sand and snot like substance. I did dose 30ml of microbacter7 5 days ago. And again 2 days ago. Last night was the first time I checked and po4 was not 0. It was 0.20. I would like to get it above 0 but no more than 0.05

Sounds like a severe ugly phase really.
If you did bottom out the Po4 you may have killed off the nitrifying bacteria. Pretty common ina lot of dino infestation.
I’d change bottled bacteria to dr tims or fritz, I belive the mb7 has an organic carbon component to it. It “may “ feed other organisms and def odd ball cayanos.

Edit , you maybe actually even need to dose Po4 if this is the case. Foods naturally contain less Po4 , but most all organics will rot and become ammonia and then nitrates.

 

[sghera64]

I actually tried vibrant before I starting using fluconazole. Was dosing 60ml every Tuesday. I did that twice. I was also dosing microbacter7 at the recommended dosage for 14 days. I only got to day 7 before I stopped and did the fluconazole. Dosing one or the other or both is what brought in the cyano I believe.
I forgot to mention my nitrates are between 10-25. 10 if divided by 100 looking at side. 25 if I’m looking straight down

I wonder what the fluconazole did to your micro fauna and flora in your tank. It is an anti-fungal (terrestrial), but may negatively impact bacteria in your tank. The fluconazole “reset” might now require an infusion of beneficial bacteria. Just thinking

 

[sghera64]

Sounds like a severe ugly phase really.
If you did bottom out the Po4 you may have killed off the nitrifying bacteria. Pretty common ina lot of dino infestation.
I’d change bottled bacteria to dr tims or fritz, I belive the mb7 has an organic carbon component to it. It “may “ feed other organisms and def odd ball cayanos.

Edit , you maybe actually even need to dose Po4 if this is the case. Foods naturally contain less Po4 , but most all organics will rot and become ammonia and then nitrates.

+1 on Dr. Tim’s

 

[jda]

What likely happened is that over those two/few days, your aragonite unbound some phosphate and there was no GFO to soak it up, so your water level of P went up. It takes a few days, or more... especially if the heavily bound phosphate areas are deep in rocks or down in the sand.

If your tank currently has an equilibrium in the water of .2, then you need to use a bit of GFO over the long term so that it lowers it, but does not take it to zero. This might require using a very small amount and changing it every day. I do not personally think that .2 P is a problem. It certainly is not as bad as true zero. I would like .05 better, but I would not chase it to this level unless you can do it safely and slowly.

Simmer is kinda moot here, to a degree. The type of phosphate unbound from aragonite is not able to be skimmed IIRC. However, you did fail to remove some DOC that will later turn into phosphate.

If you can read any color from a hobby grade test kit, then you are not growth limiting to any algae or bacteria in your system. Even without any N and P, stuff will struggle to grow, but should still be able to maintain and not die... these are building blocks of life, not truly nutrients/energy as people post about. You don't have to build to stay alive. If you drove either level to zero, then this can cause issues and truly be limiting.

 

[cracker]

I'm guilty of chasing numbers however I have always had low Po4 No3 levels. I use the hanna ulr po4 kit & redsea for No3.
If one wants to raise these levels I find dosing is a lot more controllable than gfo unplugging skimmers & feeding.
Now After reading this, I second think my desire to keep messing with it .

 

[B-ridge]

@saltyfilmfolks
Which dr Tim’s? I’m gonna assume one and only nitrifying bacteria
Which fritz? I see the turbostart900 and regular frityme 9
After all these treatments(Chemiclean and flucanozole) I imagine some nitrifying bacteria won’t hurt.
@sghera64
Supposovely flucanozole isn’t supposed to have any effect on bacteria. I find it hard to believe cause no matter what’s its a medicine. It’s used to treat. In treating its killing something. Therefore possibly killing good bacteria. Plenty others have used flucanozole I’m curious in there results. Granted there tanks may of have been running longer than mine.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

@saltyfilmfolks
Which dr Tim’s? I’m gonna assume one and only nitrifying bacteria
Which fritz? I see the turbostart900 and regular frityme 9
After all these treatments(Chemiclean and flucanozole) I imagine some nitrifying bacteria won’t hurt.
@sghera64
Supposovely flucanozole isn’t supposed to have any effect on bacteria. I find it hard to believe cause no matter what’s its a medicine. It’s used to treat. In treating its killing something. Therefore possibly killing good bacteria. Plenty others have used flucanozole I’m curious in there results. Granted there tanks may of have been running longer than mine.

Yep. One and only or Zyme.

Fluconazole doesn’t effect nitrifying bacteria. It pretty well targeted to funguses. It works on algaes as the nutrient uptake on fungus and plants is pretty similar. It inhibits uptake i believe