Balling Method Question

[Lou Ekus]

I hate to bring a specific company product perspective to this discussion, but I do think I can clear up some of the questions. Please excuse the brand bias.

If you want to use the true, original Balling Method, it is important to understand that the only Balling products that are made under the direct supervision of Hans-Werner Balling (the creator of the Balling Method) are made by the Tropic Marin company. This is not just a brand pitch or marketing ploy. Hans-Werner first wrote about the Balling Method in 1994 in Datz magazine in Germany. He revised the article in 1996. He was hired by Tropic Marin in 2001 and is now the company's Head of Product Development. So Tropic Marin's Balling products are his exact formula, made by him.

Under Hans-Werner's Balling Method, the Part C consists of EVERYTHING that is in natural sea water, with the exceptions of having no sodium chloride, calcium, or carbonates. So "technically" the Part C is "adding" magnesium and trace elements, but it is not "supplementing" for used magnesium and trace elements. The explanation of this depends on the understanding that I am using the term "adding" to mean ANY addition to the tank system. And I am using the term "supplementing" to mean an addition that compensates for and makes up for consumed magnesium and trace elements. In Hans-Werner Balling's true Balling Method, the magnesium and trace elements in the Part C are used to "balance" the excess sodium chloride left over by the additions of Part A and Part B. This only offsets this excess sodium chloride and maintains the ionic balance of the system. It does NOT make up for depletion of magnesium and trace elements. In fact, the Part C of the true Balling Method, should NOT be used for magnesium and trace element "supplementation" (That subject is good for a different discussion). The point being that magnesium and trace elements are NOT "supplemented" by the Balling Method, even though they are "added". This is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts of the true Balling Method. Lastly, in the true original Balling Method, magnesium and trace elements are still supplemented separately.

Below is a video explaining the true Balling Method. If you click on the "cc" you will get English captions while Hans-Werner Balling does the narration and explanation. This video shows how the Part C is used to balance and offset the ionic imbalance created by the excess sodium chloride left over by the Part A and Part B. I hope this helps explain the concept as Hans-Werner Balling designed it.

 

[Zach W]

I hate to bring a specific company product perspective to this discussion, but I do think I can clear up some of the questions. Please excuse the brand bias.

If you want to use the true, original Balling Method, it is important to understand that the only Balling products that are made under the direct supervision of Hans-Werner Balling (the creator of the Balling Method) are made by the Tropic Marin company. This is not just a brand pitch or marketing ploy. Hans-Werner first wrote about the Balling Method in 1994 in Datz magazine in Germany. He revised the article in 1996. He was hired by Tropic Marin in 2001 and is now the company's Head of Product Development. So Tropic Marin's Balling products are his exact formula, made by him.

Under Hans-Werner's Balling Method, the Part C consists of EVERYTHING that is in natural sea water, with the exceptions of having no sodium chloride, calcium, or carbonates. So "technically" the Part C is "adding" magnesium and trace elements, but it is not "supplementing" for used magnesium and trace elements. The explanation of this depends on the understanding that I am using the term "adding" to mean ANY addition to the tank system. And I am using the term "supplementing" to mean an addition that compensates for and makes up for consumed magnesium and trace elements. In Hans-Werner Balling's true Balling Method, the magnesium and trace elements in the Part C are used to "balance" the excess sodium chloride left over by the additions of Part A and Part B. This only offsets this excess sodium chloride and maintains the ionic balance of the system. It does NOT make up for depletion of magnesium and trace elements. In fact, the Part C of the true Balling Method, should NOT be used for magnesium and trace element "supplementation" (That subject is good for a different discussion). The point being that magnesium and trace elements are NOT "supplemented" by the Balling Method, even though they are "added". This is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts of the true Balling Method. Lastly, in the true original Balling Method, magnesium and trace elements are still supplemented separately.

Below is a video explaining the true Balling Method. If you click on the "cc" you will get English captions while Hans-Werner Balling does the narration and explanation. This video shows how the Part C is used to balance and offset the ionic imbalance created by the excess sodium chloride left over by the Part A and Part B. I hope this helps explain the concept as Hans-Werner Balling designed it.

Thank you for this detailed response! I appreciate your input and will look into it more for sure.

One question I do have though is this similar to original vs generic drugs? Obviously if he has tinkered on it since joining Tropic Marin that will be proprietary, but if he was published on the original method that can be copied and duplicated by many others (assuming that’s what every competitor has done).

 

[Stigigemla]

It is important to know that the Balling method and alikes are designed to keep the natural values of sea water in our tanks.

The goal is the natural values.
So if You have to much of anything in Your water add less of that until the value is down to the natural.

It is easy to understand why different brands have different amount of trace elements.
Today it is easy to analyze how much trace elements are consumed in a tank. But different corals take up different amounts. Soft corals for instance take up trace elements but very little calcium and magnesium. And some of trace elements might come as impurities in the large quantity chemicals.

Its just to set up a tank and add the latest recipe for a while and then make the test.
Depending on the impurities and the different animals in the tank it is easy to understand why different brands have different compositions.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thank you for this detailed response! I appreciate your input and will look into it more for sure.

One question I do have though is this similar to original vs generic drugs? Obviously if he has tinkered on it since joining Tropic Marin that will be proprietary, but if he was published on the original method that can be copied and duplicated by many others (assuming that’s what every competitor has done).

It's not as simple as "brand" vs. "generic". In that scenario, the brand is just a name and the generic is usually the name of the compound. In that drug example, both drugs will have exactly the same chemical formula.

In the Balling Method case, as far as I know, the only company that follows Hans-Werner Balling's full formula, is Tropic Marin, since he works here. Many other companies make products called "Balling" or "Balling light" or "Balling Plus". I am not putting those products down or saying they are bad in any way. I am just pointing out that, in most cases, they are not Hans-Werner Balling's exact formula.

For one quick example... the Part C of his formula includes all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water, in addition to other things. This is key in balancing the excess sodium chloride produced by Parts A&B. If a company adds 25 of those trace elements, then this would not be the true Balling Method in our opinion. Another example would be where a company designs a product that is 3 parts, but is meant to be using the Part C to supplement Mg. This would be missing the whole key point of the Balling Method meant to balance the excess sodium chloride.

The main point being that in this case, it is very different from "generic" vs. "brand name". There is an actual chemical formula difference between Hans-Werner Balling's true Balling Method, made by him, and products called "Balling" that do not follow that exact formula. I hope this answers your question.

 

[aquadise]

I hate to bring a specific company product perspective to this discussion, but I do think I can clear up some of the questions. Please excuse the brand bias.

If you want to use the true, original Balling Method, it is important to understand that the only Balling products that are made under the direct supervision of Hans-Werner Balling (the creator of the Balling Method) are made by the Tropic Marin company. This is not just a brand pitch or marketing ploy. Hans-Werner first wrote about the Balling Method in 1994 in Datz magazine in Germany. He revised the article in 1996. He was hired by Tropic Marin in 2001 and is now the company's Head of Product Development. So Tropic Marin's Balling products are his exact formula, made by him.

Under Hans-Werner's Balling Method, the Part C consists of EVERYTHING that is in natural sea water, with the exceptions of having no sodium chloride, calcium, or carbonates. So "technically" the Part C is "adding" magnesium and trace elements, but it is not "supplementing" for used magnesium and trace elements. The explanation of this depends on the understanding that I am using the term "adding" to mean ANY addition to the tank system. And I am using the term "supplementing" to mean an addition that compensates for and makes up for consumed magnesium and trace elements. In Hans-Werner Balling's true Balling Method, the magnesium and trace elements in the Part C are used to "balance" the excess sodium chloride left over by the additions of Part A and Part B. This only offsets this excess sodium chloride and maintains the ionic balance of the system. It does NOT make up for depletion of magnesium and trace elements. In fact, the Part C of the true Balling Method, should NOT be used for magnesium and trace element "supplementation" (That subject is good for a different discussion). The point being that magnesium and trace elements are NOT "supplemented" by the Balling Method, even though they are "added". This is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented concepts of the true Balling Method. Lastly, in the true original Balling Method, magnesium and trace elements are still supplemented separately.

Below is a video explaining the true Balling Method. If you click on the "cc" you will get English captions while Hans-Werner Balling does the narration and explanation. This video shows how the Part C is used to balance and offset the ionic imbalance created by the excess sodium chloride left over by the Part A and Part B. I hope this helps explain the concept as Hans-Werner Balling designed it.

Hi Lou,

So which products/ or strategy from Tropic Marin to add Magnesium and Trace elements (the elements that corals consumes)?
According to your information, it seems just Part A, B, and C in Original Balling method are not enough to provide Magnesium and Trace Elements that was consumed by corals and other creatures in the tank.

Thank you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Lou,

So which products/ or strategy from Tropic Marin to add Magnesium and Trace elements (the elements that corals consumes)?
According to your information, it seems just Part A, B, and C in Original Balling method are not enough to provide Magnesium and Trace Elements that was consumed by corals and other creatures in the tank.

Thank you.

I’m not Lou, but I’m not sure tropic Marin has a product I’d recommend for significant boosts to magnesium (as opposed to maintaining magnesium, where their organic magnesium will work).

 

[Lou Ekus]

Hi Lou,

So which products/ or strategy from Tropic Marin to add Magnesium and Trace elements (the elements that corals consumes)?
According to your information, it seems just Part A, B, and C in Original Balling method are not enough to provide Magnesium and Trace Elements that was consumed by corals and other creatures in the tank.

Thank you.

You can use the Trace K and Trace A to supplement for used trace elements. By the way, if you re using the Balling Method, the Trace K can be added to the Balling A solution, and the Trace K can be added to the Balling B solution. In that way you are still just dosing 3 solutions. You can use the Bio-Magnesium to both maintain and increase your magnesium concentration.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can use the Bio-Magnesium to both maintain and increase your magnesium concentration.

Question about that, if you will.

The description makes it sound like an organic salt of magnesium, such as magnesium acetate or formate, etc,

If it is, and if the organic is fully metabolized to CO2 as the description suggests, then the amount of alk added for a magnesium boost is mammoth (23 dKH per 100 ppm magnesium), and that is why I wasn’t recommending it for boosts, just maintenance.

Does the magnesium product add alkalinity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is the specific product I mean:

Bio-Magnesium | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

 

[Lou Ekus]

Question about that, if you will.

The description makes it sound like an organic salt of magnesium, such as magnesium acetate or formate, etc,

If it is, and if the organic is fully metabolized to CO2 as the description suggests, then the amount of alk added for a magnesium boost is mammoth (23 dKH per 100 ppm magnesium), and that is why I wasn’t recommending it for boosts, just maintenance.

Does the magnesium product add alkalinity?

I understand your concern and comment. I will let @Hans-Werner Balling answer this directly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand your concern and comment. I will let @Hans-Werner Balling answer this directly.

Thank you, Lou.

 

[aquadise]

You can use the Trace K and Trace A to supplement for used trace elements. By the way, if you re using the Balling Method, the Trace K can be added to the Balling A solution, and the Trace K can be added to the Balling B solution. In that way you are still just dosing 3 solutions. You can use the Bio-Magnesium to both maintain and increase your magnesium concentration.

Thank you, Lou.
May you revise your comment to point out Trace A add to which bottle, and Trace K add to which bottle? You mentioned both terms are Trace K.

 

[aquadise]

Question about that, if you will.

The description makes it sound like an organic salt of magnesium, such as magnesium acetate or formate, etc,

If it is, and if the organic is fully metabolized to CO2 as the description suggests, then the amount of alk added for a magnesium boost is mammoth (23 dKH per 100 ppm magnesium), and that is why I wasn’t recommending it for boosts, just maintenance.

Does the magnesium product add alkalinity?

Yeahhhhhhh, me too. I also have the same question. I dont know what does "Carbon dioxide" term mean in the description of Bio-Strongtium and Bio-Magnesium.

 

[gbru316]

How to Balance out Comp 1+ 2+ 3+ to Three Even Doses

Comp 3+ It is a common misconception among reefers that administering NaCl free salt is primarily supposed to replenish trace elements. The main task of Sodium Chloride free salt is to maintain ionic balance of aquarium water...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[gbroadbridge]

I just purchased a doser and am getting ready to start dozing for the first time. I have had my tank for about a year 3 months and am starting to add Acropora and more finicky SPS and want to maintain parameters more consistently. I am planning on running aquaforest components 1+2+3+ (their balling formulation) but have a question. I know you are suppose to dose each part equal, but my Mag always runs high at 1480-1520 roughly. So can I run the Ca (1+) and KH (2+) without the Mag (3+)? The Mag solution also has boron and potassium so I’m assuming it helps with ionic balance but I am not sure how crucial that is? I also use aquaforest salt which runs historically high in Mg so I’m not overall surprised.


I have had great luck with aquaforest products so far, and my LFS uses AF products in all their display and frag tanks so if you are wondering why I’m thinking of using that instead of something else that’s why. Thanks for the help!

If you wish to use a closer to true balling method with Aquaforest, you use their Alkalinity, Calcium, and Mineral Salt products, and then use components strong to add trace elements.

This method does not add any Magnesium and relies on water changes to maintain Mg levels. Magnesium is very abundant in seawater and does not drop significantly if you are doing regular water changes.

The Component 123 is a modified balling method that adds Mg and traces into a 3 part dosing system.

Whichever you choose you should always dose the same amount of solution 1, 2 and 3 in order to maintain the ionic balance of seawater.

It will not cause a raise in Mg, however it will maintain the existing level.

If you wish to modify the levels, you should do so before starting either system.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Our "Bio"-additive range are inorganic salt mixes which contain bicarbonate for balancing of the earth alkaline metal ions (which Ca++, Mg++ and Sr++ chemically are ).

However, in Bio-Magnesium magnesium salts and the balancing bicarbonate salt are not in a stoichiometric ratio because this would increase alkalinity too much in most applications.

The CO2 is only released when carbonates are precipitated from the supplied ions, but this is meant with the CO2 supply by these products. To replace precipitated ions and get precipitated themselves in the long run is the purpose of these additves.

I hope this explains the products a bit better!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Our "Bio"-additive range are inorganic salt mixes which contain bicarbonate for balancing of the earth alkaline metal ions (which Ca++, Mg++ and Sr++ chemically are ).

However, in Bio-Magnesium magnesium salts and the balancing bicarbonate salt are not in a stoichiometric ratio because this would increase alkalinity too much in most applications.

The CO2 is only released when carbonates are precipitated from the supplied ions, but this is meant with the CO2 supply by these products. To replace precipitated ions and get precipitated themselves in the long run is the purpose of these additves.

I hope this explains the products a bit better!

Thank you, it does.

It leaves me perplexed why the Tropic Marin web site names this product

“Organic Magnesium”

Minerals | Tropic Marin

www.tropic-marin.com

Is that a translation problem?

 

[Hans-Werner]

It leaves me perplexed why the Tropic Marin web site names this product

“Organic Magnesium”

Me too, and I have to say we are very sorry, this is just a typo on our new homepage! On the container you can still see the correct "Bio-Magnesium".

Somehow in the translation process this must have been changed to "Organic Magnesium" (since the German prefix "Bio-" translates to "organic" in English) and this error has passed control until now.

We will correct this ASAP.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, that’s great. Thanks!

 

[areefer01]

And that is how forums should work. Great example of product vendor (TM) and fellow hobbyists and chemists asking questions, answering them, follow up questions, and answers with agreement. Great job.

I think we just won the internet for the day. So much better to see than angst and hostility. Thank you all.