Bangaii Cardinalfish Fry

[goody]

I thought I would start a new thread regarding my mating pair of Bangaiis since the last thread was focused on suggestions on how to catch the male.

Now that he is in the breeder's box in the display tank and still showing signs of eggs in his mouth, fingers were crossed that he would soon spit out the fry.

After watching videos, it still seemed like there was more time before this would happen, because I wasn't seeing any small eyes or fins poking out of his mouth like in the videos. I did know that he had had the eggs in his mouth for at least 21 days so it had to be getting close.

Well yesterday, he spit out 7 fry,but all still had the yolk sac attached, so I'm assuming this was earlier than should have been since all videos of releasing fry showed fry that look exactly like the adults just tiny.

I have read that they don't need any food until the yolk sac is gone, so my brine shrimp hatchery is up and running hoping these will survive and since the male still has a "boxer jaw" there are more in there and hoping he will carry the rest until fully developed.

I'm just leaving the 7 in the breeder box for now but if there is anything I should do to increase their chances of survival please advise

 

[goody]

A local member said I should put an air stone in the breeder box to keep any detritus off the fry. I had all that was needed on hand but I'm not sure if this is too fast or too slow. Do I want the fry being moved around by the bubbles?
ad

 

[Kmst80]

I've been breeding bangaii for over a year, my male did release a few each day for 5-10 days( not exact), the last day he released it is a bigger batch.
Mine took about 28 days from the day he did not eat anymore for the first ones to come out and held up to 34 days for the last ones.
Because I got a lot of fry with swimming bladder deformation( swim constantly in an upward movement) I started stripping the eggs on day 24 and put them in an egg tumbler and this way I got to clutches of around mid 20s.

You need to separate the male from the fry, once he spits the last ones the parents will eat the fry.

You'll work out quick enough when they are eating, they will have little orange bellies from the baby brine. Looking at yours I would start feeding in a day or two.

Good luck.

Some pics of mine

 

[goody]

I've been breeding bangaii for over a year, my male did release a few each day for 5-10 days( not exact), the last day he released it is a bigger batch.
Mine took about 28 days from the day he did not eat anymore for the first ones to come out and held up to 34 days for the last ones.
Because I got a lot of fry with swimming bladder deformation( swim constantly in an upward movement) I started stripping the eggs on day 24 and put them in an egg tumbler and this way I got to clutches of around mid 20s.

You need to separate the male from the fry, once he spits the last ones the parents will eat the fry.

You'll work out quick enough when they are eating, they will have little orange bellies from the baby brine. Looking at yours I would start feeding in a day or two.

Good luck.

Some pics of mine

Thanks for the reply. Few questions:
In photo 2 and 3 what do you have your fry in?
How do you go about stripping?
Have yours spit out the fry this early to where they look like mine? From all the videos I've watched, it looks like they're supposed to be exactly like the adults just tiny when they're spit out.

 

[Kmst80]

Photo 2 and 3 are my diy egg tumbler, pretty much like this


I started stripping mine so he was only without food 24 days rather than up to 34 days. All you got to do is in a net hold him above water and he will spit the eggs out, they stick together if they aren't fry yet.

The first fry are always like yours, after all male bangaii can hold up to 60 eggs or more, as they grow and hatch he has to spit some out to make space. He will do so every day or so, holding as many as he can back.
When I stripped the eggs I got 35 once and 28 survived.
So the later releases will be fully formed ready to ear.

When I raised the eggs after day 24 I had them only 2 or 3 days in the tumbler before they all hatched and after hatching it's only a day or so before they start eating. If that jolk sack is gone feed them.

I raised mine in a net hatchery in the main tank feeding baby brine morning and evening and after 3 weeks I started introducing frozen chopped up and mini pellets.
To wean them of the baby brine I used frozen oyster eggs and steadily reduced bb.

 

[DaJMasta]

You probably don't want aeration in your breeder box for the ones that can't swim yet, the extra movement may damage them an in my experience, once they have the ability to swim a bit on their own, just letting them be will let them develop normally provided the water isn't super stagnant.

In my experience, their father will give you at least a few hours notice before turning on any of them, so he will lose the jaw size and will start acting different (mine would try to hide a lot more when still carrying eggs), then you can just let him out.

Your fry are probably only 2-3 days out from their final/starting fry form when they can eat, and by then they should be more active (having a swim bladder certainly keeps them up off the ground more) and will immediately respond to live foods. Once they are swimming a bit off the bottom, I would offer a small amount of live food and see if they go for it.

Also, if you're raising them in a tank without potential predators, the fake urchin is entirely unnecessary. I see it mentioned as a necessity all over, but it never was in my experience. I got good yields and healthy fry for a dozen batches or more without ever using one, though if something spindly is there to give them cover (even macroalgae), they will definitely rush into it when scared.

 

[goody]

You probably don't want aeration in your breeder box for the ones that can't swim yet, the extra movement may damage them an in my experience, once they have the ability to swim a bit on their own, just letting them be will let them develop normally provided the water isn't super stagnant.

In my experience, their father will give you at least a few hours notice before turning on any of them, so he will lose the jaw size and will start acting different (mine would try to hide a lot more when still carrying eggs), then you can just let him out.

Your fry are probably only 2-3 days out from their final/starting fry form when they can eat, and by then they should be more active (having a swim bladder certainly keeps them up off the ground more) and will immediately respond to live foods. Once they are swimming a bit off the bottom, I would offer a small amount of live food and see if they go for it.

Also, if you're raising them in a tank without potential predators, the fake urchin is entirely unnecessary. I see it mentioned as a necessity all over, but it never was in my experience. I got good yields and healthy fry for a dozen batches or more without ever using one, though if something spindly is there to give them cover (even macroalgae), they will definitely rush into it when scared.

What are your thoughts on keeping them in my refugium that has 3 peppermint shrimp but lots of macroalgae. Would they be safe with the shrimp?

 

[goody]

Photo 2 and 3 are my diy egg tumbler, pretty much like this


I started stripping mine so he was only without food 24 days rather than up to 34 days. All you got to do is in a net hold him above water and he will spit the eggs out, they stick together if they aren't fry yet.

The first fry are always like yours, after all male bangaii can hold up to 60 eggs or more, as they grow and hatch he has to spit some out to make space. He will do so every day or so, holding as many as he can back.
When I stripped the eggs I got 35 once and 28 survived.
So the later releases will be fully formed ready to ear.

When I raised the eggs after day 24 I had them only 2 or 3 days in the tumbler before they all hatched and after hatching it's only a day or so before they start eating. If that jolk sack is gone feed them.

I raised mine in a net hatchery in the main tank feeding baby brine morning and evening and after 3 weeks I started introducing frozen chopped up and mini pellets.
To wean them of the baby brine I used frozen oyster eggs and steadily reduced bb.

Stripping sounds interesting and in your case provides better results. I also like that the male is not without food as long. Do you keep the male separate from female for awhile after stripping so it can eat and get stronger before the next mouth brooding?

 

[DaJMasta]

What are your thoughts on keeping them in my refugium that has 3 peppermint shrimp but lots of macroalgae. Would they be safe with the shrimp?

Once they are free swimming, yeah probably, especially if you feed the shrimp. Probably not when they still mostly rest at the bottom. Also, they have big mouths and use them, you probably won't get a lot of copepod production from it if they're living in there.

 

[Kmst80]

Stripping sounds interesting and in your case provides better results. I also like that the male is not without food as long. Do you keep the male separate from female for awhile after stripping so it can eat and get stronger before the next mouth brooding?

The male went back in with the female straight after stripping him.
The difference I saw was that when I let nature do its thing he would spit the last ones around day 33/34, then would get a 7 day window of eating before the female did her mating dance again.
When I stripped him on day 24 he got to eat around 14 days before the female got to him again.
The hardest bit was trying to catch him in a mixed 200 gallon reeftank to strip him. So a few month ago I decided to resurrect my old 30 gallon freshwater tank and make it the bangaii breeding tank. Sadly my male passed away about 2 month ago.
I still set up the tank and atm I have 3 juveniles of my last clutch in it waiting for them to show their sex.

 

[goody]

The male went back in with the female straight after stripping him.
The difference I saw was that when I let nature do its thing he would spit the last ones around day 33/34, then would get a 7 day window of eating before the female did her mating dance again.
When I stripped him on day 24 he got to eat around 14 days before the female got to him again.
The hardest bit was trying to catch him in a mixed 200 gallon reeftank to strip him. So a few month ago I decided to resurrect my old 30 gallon freshwater tank and make it the bangaii breeding tank. Sadly my male passed away about 2 month ago.
I still set up the tank and atm I have 3 juveniles of my last clutch in it waiting for them to show their sex.

Sorry to hear you lost your male. A few things I like that you mention about stripping is that the male is not going as many days without eating, he has more time to eat before next clutch of eggs, and better success rate of fry.
Not sure if I am ready to try it on the next go around, but if I continue to try and breed/raise the fry, I definitely will.

 

[Kmst80]

If you got to much time here is some old discontinued breeding forum where i got some helpful information from. Just scroll down to Breeding Journals.

http://www.mbisite.org/Search.aspx?Species=14

 

[goody]

He spit out more fry that looked pretty much the same so that was about 10-12 total. Came home today and there are only 2 in the box. Did he eat them? Could they have made it through the slits in the breeder box? His jaw definitely doesn't look as big nor is his mouth as open,but tried seeing if he would eat and he wouldn't. Should I remove him from the last remaining 2 fry? They are definitely further along in development.

 

[Kmst80]

If you keep watching him closely you should be able to see them when he opens his mouth. When they are eggs he tumbles them around and opens his mouth to do so. When they are swimming they swim in his mouth.
Mine always released either just before lights out or on in the morning.

Some of the little ones will not survive and once they passed they go to nothing pretty quick but you might have them slipping through the gaps.
That's why i used the net hatcheries.

 

[goody]

If you keep watching him closely you should be able to see them when he opens his mouth. When they are eggs he tumbles them around and opens his mouth to do so. When they are swimming they swim in his mouth.
Mine always released either just before lights out or on in the morning.

Some of the little ones will not survive and once they passed they go to nothing pretty quick but you might have them slipping through the gaps.
That's why i used the net hatcheries.

Well I moved him to my refugium in case he was eating the fry, but reading what you said about them passing to nothing seems like that what might have happened. I'm not seeing any movement of anything in his mouth and he's not doing any awkward movements of his mouth like he's juggling fry or eggs around, but he's still not eating. If there are more, maybe they will survive in my refugium. Looks like I lost one of the last two remaining, but good news is the last one is starting to swim up in the breeder box.

 

[goody]

Last of the fry is still going. Caught the female to eventually move into the refugium with the male where I will keep for future breeding. I think this will make it much easier to collect eggs, fry, or adults throughout the process.