BANNED! But Is There Still Hope?

[shred5]

Could a reward system be put in place for breeders? Especially those working actively with organizations, so part of their spawn goes back into the wild?

That is a interesting idea, not putting stuff back in the ocean but a reward system.
Reason most stuff cannot go back in the ocean is we mix to much and have corals from all over the world together. A coral from the Pacific could have a pathogen that the Atlantic has not seen. This could be more devastating putting one back because those corals do not have a resistance.

But a reward system for breeding new specie's as in money reward. That would require organizing and raising money. Even money for research.

 

[Rispa]

That is a interesting idea, not putting stuff back in the ocean but a reward system.
Reason most stuff cannot go back in the ocean is we mix to much and have corals from all over the world together. A coral from the Pacific could have a pathogen that the Atlantic has not seen. This could be more devastating putting one back because those corals do not have a resistance.

But a reward system for breeding new specie's as in money reward. That would require organizing and raising money. Even money for research.

With the way things are going I think it could be raised. I think organizing things would be more difficult.

As for tangs what about a several thousand gallon tank with multiple 'runs' in it, so you could house many together without fighting. Or something to trigger spawning so the eggs and sperm can be artificially or together like in urchins. (I know this isn't the exact place for this discussion, I just wanted to write it down while I was thinking about it)

 

[Pauley]

Anything that is perceived to negatively impact the environment (real or not) is political fodder these days. Right or wrong, this hobby will be in the crosshairs of some groups. Re-seeding reefs, employing locals, conservation efforts, etc won't matter to some people, because they are viscerally against the concept, and no fact will get in the way of an emotion for them.

In the end, I think the hobby will evolve into much more aquaculture on a large scale. When forced, suppliers will become better at captive breeding tricky fishes, aquaculturing delicate coral,seeding dead rock, etc. Ultimately (somewhat cynically), I think countries will also put reelection & govt profit before supposed moral stances. If they make more money from ecotourism, etc, coral collecting will be banned. If it costs them money and votes, bans will be lifted. Like everyone else here, I think this may just be a debate over how to best polish the brass on the Titanic. Other factors seem to be destroying wild reefs at an incredible rate - well beyond any impact coral collecting (or collection bans) may have.

 

[shred5]

With the way things are going I think it could be raised. I think organizing things would be more difficult.

As for tangs what about a several thousand gallon tank with multiple 'runs' in it, so you could house many together without fighting. Or something to trigger spawning so the eggs and sperm can be artificially or together like in urchins. (I know this isn't the exact place for this discussion, I just wanted to write it down while I was thinking about it)

There have been several species of tangs being bred lately like the yellow and the pacific blue tang, so it is possible. There are even a few videos on it. Problem is still along way to go, they got very few out of 50,000 eggs.

To me the quickest ways to get fish like tangs is collecting them post larval and then rearing them which is being done right now and are some are currently available in the hobby. This has very small impact on the ocean because 90+ percent of those fish would never make it to adulthood anyway.
One issue is limited quantity's right now but could be ramped faster that tank bred fish.
The other is these bans have stopped everything even aquaculture. Like in Fiji no coral or rock can go out period.

 

[ReefWithCare]

There have been several species of tangs being bred lately like the yellow and the pacific blue tang, so it is possible. There are even a few videos on it. Problem is still along way to go, they got very few out of 50,000 eggs.

To me the quickest ways to get fish like tangs is collecting them post larval and then rearing them which is being done right now and are some are currently available in the hobby. This has very small impact on the ocean because 90+ percent of those fish would never make it to adulthood anyway.
One issue is limited quantity's right now but could be ramped faster that tank bred fish.
The other is these bans have stopped everything even aquaculture. Like in Fiji no coral or rock can go out period.

The yellow tang captive bred vid is over 2 yrs old now and there still aren’t mass market yet [emoji29]. I was hoping for ORA tangs at this points. Even biota tank raised coral beauties are very hard to find. I think corals are already stable and plentiful at the aquaculture level - but fish have a long way to go.

 

[jgvergo]

I support the ban. Does anyone else agree?

No, I do not agree. Recent evidence points to a biological explosion in the reefs around Hawaii. I believe we must be responsible stewards of the reefs, but that banning all collection of livestock is a knee jerk, feel good reaction. Let's base our decisions on science and logic. For example, I'd love to see the calculations of 1) What is the total estimated biomass of corals in Hawaii and 2) What is the estimated biomass of harvested corals in the hobby. I'd bet the harvested biomass is < .001% of the total biomass. In other words, the impact of the hobby is probably negligible.

That being said, I can see an argument for a temporary moratorium on collection of corals from Australia until we understand what is causing the bleaching and whether it reverses itself.

 

[OriginalUserName]

I think wild collection should be heavily restricted. Licenses should only be given to companies that prove that they can propagate the animals. That keeps wild reefs safe (yes, reefing does hurt reefs just not as much as other human activity) while allowing for replenishment of genetic diversity and new species to the hobby.

Of course an intelligent ban is unlikely to ever happen.

"Yet the legislature and the judicial branches of the Hawaiian government still ruled to shut down all collection of fish for the hobby, while still allowing unlimited fishing and spearfishing. So the logic of government is such that removing live fish to learn and study and to show individuals the beauty of the reef is bad, while killing them for sport is good."

I smell what your laying down. But the Hawaiians have an indelible right to harvest their fish for consumption. Hawaii is not the reason global tuna stocks, or any fish stock, are approaching collapse. And to a spearo a large dussumieri tang or a large trigger fish looks like dinner. I'm sure the occasional grand daddy yellow or kole tang also becomes dinner. But 90% of the aquarium fish are not taken for good. So it might not make sense to apply that lens to aquarium fish.

The mortality rates of wild collected fish are indisputable. I can understand how a place and it's people would be opposed to to fish collection given their grim survival outlook.

$$$$

Those industries have the money to influence policy. The pet industry rarely does.

No, I do not agree. Recent evidence points to a biological explosion in the reefs around Hawaii. I believe we must be responsible stewards of the reefs, but that banning all collection of livestock is a knee jerk, feel good reaction. Let's base our decisions on science and logic. For example, I'd love to see the calculations of 1) What is the total estimated biomass of corals in Hawaii and 2) What is the estimated biomass of harvested corals in the hobby. I'd bet the harvested biomass is < .001% of the total biomass. In other words, the impact of the hobby is probably negligible.

That being said, I can see an argument for a temporary moratorium on collection of corals from Australia until we understand what is causing the bleaching and whether it reverses itself.

You would have to include accidental damage done during that collection as well, especially during live rock collection. Still a valid point though. If I had to put money on it I'd say that the tourist snorkeling and diving trade kills far more corals than we ever could.

On a recent vacation I was staying on a small island in the bahamamas. The resort was breaking down the rock beach in order to make it a sandy beach. The resort had two large "bays". The bay seeing the work was coated in very fine sand from the construction. There must have been massive dieoff on the corals in that large area.

 

[ca1ore]

Of course an intelligent ban is unlikely to ever happen.

..... that's because it requires effort and the actual use of data. 'Gut feel' and de-facto authoritarianism is much easier.

 

[jgvergo]

..... that's because it requires effort and the actual use of data. 'Gut feel' and de-facto authoritarianism is much easier.

Love your sig!

 

[User1]

With regards to coral(s) this hobby can be self sustaining. People share, people sell, people throw away - then there is the greed by some large and small suppliers.
With regards to fish this hobby is somewhat self sustaining. It means we have a reduced fish selection but ORA is a great start. Prices will probably go up.
With regards hobbyist impact it is difficult to put a exact number on. There are various levels of mortality rate(s) in the supply chain from source to home.
With regards to mortality rate by irresponsible hobbyists again difficult to quantify but we all have read various posts on many different forums.
With regards to certain reef die off no one knows and the ocean covers a tick over 70% of the Earth. $$$ is involved so good luck.
With regards to fish population or the impact of home aquarium won't happen. Eating will always win. See last 'with regards' below
With regards to aquarium, world reefs, and fish - not all countries will play by the same rules. The need to eat outweigh laws to protect not to mention lack of environmental regs.

 

[Rispa]

With regards to coral(s) this hobby can be self sustaining. People share, people sell, people throw away - then there is the greed by some large and small suppliers.
With regards to fish this hobby is somewhat self sustaining. It means we have a reduced fish selection but ORA is a great start. Prices will probably go up.
With regards hobbyist impact it is difficult to put a exact number on. There are various levels of mortality rate(s) in the supply chain from source to home.
With regards to mortality rate by irresponsible hobbyists again difficult to quantify but we all have read various posts on many different forums.
With regards to certain reef die off no one knows and the ocean covers a tick over 70% of the Earth. $$$ is involved so good luck.
With regards to fish population or the impact of home aquarium won't happen. Eating will always win. See last 'with regards' below
With regards to aquarium, world reefs, and fish - not all countries will play by the same rules. The need to eat outweigh laws to protect not to mention lack of environmental regs.

The more expensive the product, the more it is valued. It could be a good thing if prices go up.

 

[jpluttme]

It's easy enough for you to find them yourself, but's it's happier living in denial. I'm not so much an activist for the oceans' sake, but for the welfare of the animals. If you can not see the sickening death and disease rampant in this hobby, then you are surely in denial. I want something to happen to strangle the end consumer, maybe a $1000 yellow tang. I am sick to death of seeing buckets and buckets of dead fish at the lfs' and the distributors. Or see another 40 breeder with triggers, angels, and tangs; and the countless of fish that never belong in a home aquariums. Do you ever wonder where they all go; I bet you don't.

The only thing that could be considered legitimate I found regarding 98% was this National Geographic article which said, "A full 98 percent—yes, almost all—species of saltwater fish currently can’t be bred in captivity on a commercial scale. They must instead be taken from ocean reefs." :
https://news.nationalgeographic.com...-saltwater-tropical-fish-cyanide-coral-reefs/

Otherwise, a WWF-Philippines article only mentioned that it was estimated that as many as 98% of wild-caught reef fish die within one year, without any mention of how that estimate was achieved.

I'm not discounting your stance on a ban or attacking you personally, just trying to determine how that figure came to be. I'm sure it's high, especially after movies like Finding Nemo and the like are released, but I'm not convinced it's 98%.

 

[biophilia]

I would have no problem with a ban if it was done for logical reasons. Unfortunately most bans and restrictions like this are nothing more than politicians trying to keep their constituents happy and/or getting the annoying eco warriors off their back.

Who are the “annoying eco warriors?” The conservation biologists who are attempting to save the few remaining intact coral reef ecosystems?

 

[shred5]

The yellow tang captive bred vid is over 2 yrs old now and there still aren’t mass market yet [emoji29]. I was hoping for ORA tangs at this points. Even biota tank raised coral beauties are very hard to find. I think corals are already stable and plentiful at the aquaculture level - but fish have a long way to go.

Biota the way they are going could end up being the savior of this hobby. They are taking on challenging stuff..

 

[shred5]

Who are the “annoying eco warriors?” The conservation biologists who are attempting to save the few remaining intact coral reef ecosystems?

Sea Shepard.

 

[jpluttme]

After reading some more, better arguments, I change my stance. I’m against the ban until someone shows me that our hobby is truly part of the problem, and not some natural cause.

In fact, our hobby may be part of the solution. We are literally keeping stocks of all sorts of corals alive and well in our tanks. If some event destroyed all of our reefs, guess who would come to the rescue? Not the bloody government beurococrats.

What do we do when a coral starts to stn or rtn? We frag it in hopes of starting it over.

That's true to extent, but as is evidenced on this forum, even the most successful of reef keepers have had very large total system meltdowns. Just look at all the build threads on here that have mentioned that or just ended with tank meltdowns. I'm sure with beginners the coral and fish death rate is even higher, especially from people who see a pretty fish at a place like Petco and decide they want to buy it without doing the proper research. There are 1,500 Petco locations across the United States, Mexico, and Puerto Rico. How many specimens die in transit or at the store, even before they make it to unprepared/uneducated consumers?

Just something to consider.

 

[biophilia]

Sea Shepard.

I guess I’m not all too familiar with the annoying portions of their work. I really only know of them because of their anti-whaling operations — which seem outwardly both legally and ethically warranted — and their advocacy work with protecting marine areas that are currently experiencing a wave of extinctions a thousand times higher than the natural background rate. I’ll read up on their positions a bit more.

 

[ca1ore]

Love your sig!

Hee hee

 

[User1]

The more expensive the product, the more it is valued. It could be a good thing if prices go up.

I can see that side of the argument, yes. However, it very well could turn this hobby into a 1% one meaning only a few can actually afford it. Few fish are already there then let us take a look at the designer corals that someone slaps a fancy sticker on then adds a couple digits to the price tag. Don't get me wrong I know it is about choices and I'm just has guilty with my many vices. Just trying to separate out the conscientious aquarist (after all Fenner wrote a great book on it) who is doing the right thing suddenly getting thrown out of a hobby due to a increase in animal life. I consider it collateral damage and I hate to see those people get caught up in this.

As with life there are many factors in play here many of which most of us will never know. I personally just try to do the right thing and treat all my animals has family pets. I know it sounds silly but it keeps me honest at least.

 

[PDR]

Who are the “annoying eco warriors?” The conservation biologists who are attempting to save the few remaining intact coral reef ecosystems?

I honestly didn't have any one organization in mind. I was writing that from the view point of a politician who has more important things to do (like getting re-elected ).

But keep in mind that many of the highly outspoken organizations, at their heart, are much more political in nature than actual conservation. Then there are some that are just straight up crazy.

Some of these posts seem pretty doom and gloom. There are organizations who try to get pet ownership of all kinds banned. Others who go even further than that. I have no reason to think they will succeed in completely banning the hobby, not unless they also succeed in banning just about everything else.

Whatever happens let's all just keep positive. We shouldn't bury our heads in the sand but negativity never helped anyone.