Bean Animal Elbow help please

[Shawn7854]

I have a 50 lowboy, bean animal overflow

Whats the point of the secondary drain having an elbow if all is going down there is just a trickle that makes 0 noise? Why do people put an elbow when you can leave it open? Even the main siphon why put anything? Its a full siphon

 

[KStatefan]

I do not use any in my "three drain system".

If the water is not deep enough the elbow can keep a vortex from forming. I do not think that will happen in yours from a video you posted in another thread it looked like you do not have much flow.

In the original design of BeanAnimal this was used in a coast to coast overflow and the elbow went to the bottom of the overflow and had slits cut to keep things out.

Silent & Fail-Safe Aquarium Overflow System | BeanAnimal's Reef

Build the world famous "Bean Animal" silent and fail-safe aquarium overflow system. No noise, no adjustment, no floods. A truly set and forget setup that makes the Durso and Stockman style of standpipes obsolete! Build your own today!

beananimal.com

 

[Shawn7854]

I do not use any in my "three drain system".

If the water is not deep enough the elbow can keep a vortex from forming. I do not think that will happen in yours from a video you posted in another thread it looked like you do not have much flow.

In the original design of BeanAnimal this was used in a coast to coast overflow and the elbow went to the bottom of the overflow and had slits cut to keep things out.

Silent & Fail-Safe Aquarium Overflow System | BeanAnimal's Reef

Build the world famous "Bean Animal" silent and fail-safe aquarium overflow system. No noise, no adjustment, no floods. A truly set and forget setup that makes the Durso and Stockman style of standpipes obsolete! Build your own today!

beananimal.com

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I have a 50 lowboy, bean animal overflow

Whats the point of the secondary drain having an elbow if all is going down there is just a trickle that makes 0 noise? Why do people put an elbow when you can leave it open? Even the main siphon why put anything? Its a full siphon

100%!! There is zero reason for a durso on a Herbie or Bean Animal drain. Full siphon straight down with a strainer, emergency drain(s) straight down and open.

 

[Shawn7854]

100%!! There is zero reason for a durso on a Herbie or Bean Animal drain. Full siphon straight down with a strainer, emergency drain(s) straight down and open.

I do notice if i add a powerhead I hear sometimes here and there the trickle in the secondary, is it safe to say its good to add the elbow there? Or sand the pipe so its more circular so water flows over smoothly?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I do notice if i add a powerhead I hear sometimes here and there the trickle in the secondary, is it safe to say its good to add the elbow there? Or sand the pipe so its more circular so water flows over smoothly?

Up to you. If it were me I'd raise the pipe a tad

 

[Shawn7854]

Up to you. If it were me I'd raise the pipe a tad

I tried raising it but then the overflow skimming is not working properly

 

[cilyjr]

You do not need the second pipe to be a Durso. The idea of the second pipe is to make it easy to "half-@&# tune" the siphon drain. Meaning it doesn't need to be perfect because some water will flow through the secondary pipe. It's the how much that is in question.

You can absolutely leave that pipe open at the top, but you will hear more noise than you would from a Durso if you get up to a 100 GPH or so ( depending on diameter) going through it. I know That's more than a trickle. But the idea is your siphon drain restrictor has a higher range and the overall drain system is still completely quiet.

 

[Shawn7854]

You do not need the second pipe to be a Durso. The idea of the second pipe is to make it easy to "half-@&# tune" the siphon drain. Meaning it doesn't need to be perfect because some water will flow through the secondary pipe. It's the how much that is in question.

You can absolutely leave that pipe open at the top, but you will hear more noise than you would from a Durso if you get up to a 100 GPH or so ( depending on diameter) going through it. I know That's more than a trickle. But the idea is your siphon drain restrictor has a higher range and the overall drain system is still completely quiet.

So I can pass my entire flow through my siphon only and not use my secondary? Because my siphon is like 85% closed to be fully siphon

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have a 50 lowboy, bean animal overflow

Whats the point of the secondary drain having an elbow if all is going down there is just a trickle that makes 0 noise? Why do people put an elbow when you can leave it open? Even the main siphon why put anything? Its a full siphon

1 - vortex prevention. Vortexes cause noise and can break the siphon or cause pulsing.

2 - noise. The open pipe is a resonator. The elbow or stockman setup at the top will simply block/muffle any water noise.

3 - it allows for a small hole or airline to be placed in the top of the elbow on the open channel. When this hole is covered or the airline blocked (see rendering at my site) the open channel QUICKLY turns into a siphon. If it is open top, it takes a LOT more flow to fully cover the hole and begin to siphon.

4 - algae growth in the open top will become a problem if at all exposed to light.

 

[BeanAnimal]

100%!! There is zero reason for a durso on a Herbie or Bean Animal drain. Full siphon straight down with a strainer, emergency drain(s) straight down and open.

See above post - Also I do not recommend strainers unless you are fanatical about maintenance. They grow and collect algae and can allow a vortex as well as allow noise to resonate out of the open pipe.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You do not need the second pipe to be a Durso. The idea of the second pipe is to make it easy to "half-@&# tune" the siphon drain. Meaning it doesn't need to be perfect because some water will flow through the secondary pipe. It's the how much that is in question.

Thanks for your expertise on the matter, shall I will add that to the functional description

Open Channel Standpipe: A "half-done" way to tune the system.

Why we want water flowing in the secondary (open channel):
If you don't have ANY water flowing through the secondary pipe (the open channel), that means that you have to have the siphon PERFECTLY balanced and just the slightest downward change in flow from the return pump will cause it [the siphon standpipe] to pull air, breaking the siphon and causing the water to backup until the secondary kicks in or the siphon restarts. This flushing will continue until the siphon valve is retuned.

So yes, cilyjr - To properly tune MY system and have it operate AS DESIGNED - the secondary (open channel) standpipe should have water in it, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10%-20% depending on pipe diameter and overall system flow.

This allows the system to SELF TUNE as return flow fluctuates and prevents the siphon from ever drawing in air and becoming unbalanced.

 

[cilyjr]

Well there ya go!

 

[Shawn7854]

1 - vortex prevention. Vortexes cause noise and can break the siphon or cause pulsing.

2 - noise. The open pipe is a resonator. The elbow or stockman setup at the top will simply block/muffle any water noise.

3 - it allows for a small hole or airline to be placed in the top of the elbow on the open channel. When this hole is covered or the airline blocked (see rendering at my site) the open channel QUICKLY turns into a siphon. If it is open top, it takes a LOT more flow to fully cover the hole and begin to siphon.

4 - algae growth in the open top will become a problem if at all exposed to light.

Thanks

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

See above post - Also I do not recommend strainers unless you are fanatical about maintenance. They grow and collect algae and can allow a vortex as well as allow noise to resonate out of the open pipe.

Mine has never added a vortex or noise. Yes, I clean the algae off during regular maintenance (I have several and I just swap out the dirty one for a clean one) but I'm nowhere near "fanatical".

I understand that your design works and is useful to a lot of people but there are variations of this (and the Herbie) that work just as well, or better, for others.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Why we want water flowing in the secondary (open channel):
If you don't have ANY water flowing through the secondary pipe (the open channel), that means that you have to have the siphon PERFECTLY balanced and just the slightest downward change in flow from the return pump will cause it [the siphon standpipe] to pull air, breaking the siphon and causing the water to backup until the secondary kicks in or the siphon restarts. This flushing will continue until the siphon valve is retuned.

So yes, cilyjr - To properly tune MY system and have it operate AS DESIGNED - the secondary (open channel) standpipe should have water in it, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10%-20% depending on pipe diameter and overall system flow.

This allows the system to SELF TUNE as return flow fluctuates and prevents the siphon from ever drawing in air and becoming unbalanced.

This is simply untrue! As long as the primary/siphon drain is low enough, the water level in the overflow box can fall, and stay, below the top of the secondary drain with no problem whatsoever. Mine is set up this way and I have never had a problem.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Mine has never added a vortex or noise.

It depends on the overall pipe diameter, depth that it is submerged and the overall flow box volume, etc.

The system was designed to work as published for anybody. In any given system certain aspects of the system can be changed or modified. The resulting operational parameters and behaviors and adjustments (tuning, fail-safe features, silence, etc.) may or may not align with the system as published and built.

I understand that your design works and is useful to a lot of people but there are variations of this (and the Herbie) that work just as well, or better, for others.

By all means you (or anybody) can use whatever works for them. I have simply responded to your advice and that of other's as it relates to MY design and the possible effects that may have on its operation.

 

[BeanAnimal]

This is simply untrue! As long as the primary/siphon drain is low enough, the water level in the overflow box can fall, and stay, below the top of the secondary drain with no problem whatsoever. Mine is set up this way and I have never had a problem.

As long as the

AS LONG AS THE....

See what you did there?
**You had to add a qualifier to take change the context of both MY DESIGN and the comment that I was responding to**

So (again) in context to the BeanAnimal Overflow - AS DESIGNED AND PUBLISHED. Your assertion that my statement is not true is... well untrue
I explained why above.

I will repeat myself for the sake of clarity. The design is very specific in the way that it handles flow variances, overflow box configurations and failures and was engineered in such a way that the setup if built AS PUBLISHED will work for an extraordinary range of flows, plumbing sizes and downstream configurations without the need for alteration or adjustment to keep it tuned.

Given any system, one or more parts of the design can be changed (even drastically) and the overflow system (or parts of it) will still work. Likewise, such changes can also be detrimental to the systems operation or make it hard to adjust or keep in balance. The permutations are literally infinite and only trial and error will dictate which permutations are stable or keep the features of the original design.


You have chosen to make a change to my published design and it works for you GIVEN YOUR SPECIFIC set of parameters (overflow box volume, water flow volume, pipe size and downstream configuration etc.). That is wonderful! I am glad that you found a setup that works perfectly for you.

But, telling me or others that don't understand my design or that what I say about its operation is "untrue" is kinda silly.

I have not had to have the specific conversation on over a decade... but alas, I suspect it was overdue

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

AS LONG AS THE....

See what you did there?
**You had to add a qualifier to take change the context of both MY DESIGN and the comment that I was responding to**

So (again) in context to the BeanAnimal Overflow - AS DESIGNED AND PUBLISHED. Your assertion that my statement is not true is... well untrue
I explained why above.

I will repeat myself for the sake of clarity. The design is very specific in the way that it handles flow variances, overflow box configurations and failures and was engineered in such a way that the setup if built AS PUBLISHED will work for an extraordinary range of flows, plumbing sizes and downstream configurations without the need for alteration or adjustment to keep it tuned.

Given any system, one or more parts of the design can be changed (even drastically) and the overflow system (or parts of it) will still work. Likewise, such changes can also be detrimental to the systems operation or make it hard to adjust or keep in balance. The permutations are literally infinite and only trial and error will dictate which permutations are stable or keep the features of the original design.

YOU have chosen to make a change to my published design and it works for you GIVEN YOUR SPECIFIC set of parameters (overflow box volume, water flow volume, pipe size and downstream configuration etc.). That is wonderful! I am glad that you found a setup that works perfectly for you.

But, telling me or others that don't understand my design or that what I say about its operation is "untrue" is kinda silly.

I think we all get your point...

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think we all get your point...

Wonderful...

But let's hammer it home...


In context to cilyjr's comment and your response.

If the distance between the weir height of the siphon and open channel are significant... that is, the siphon is deeply submerged AND the overflow box is small compared to the volume of flow, then the siphon ALONE will somewhat self regulate for variances in return pump flow WITHOUT the need or action of the secondary. So a DRY secondary (open channel)

It works for some setups that fall into the range described above. This is due to the small variances in flow changing the actual water level in the overflow box and thus changing the head on the siphon, increasing or decreasing its flow. "self tuning" to an extent. This can't be relied on as a design for regulation of the standpipe system because it is SO VARIABLE based on overflow box size, plumbing size and overall flow.

IT IS A HERBIE with two emergencies...

I designed my overflow due to the shortcomings of the HERBIE with regard to self regulation and ease of tuning and fail-safe features.

So a Herbie - one emergency standpipe that also acts as a self tuner if flow increases. There is no self-tune in most cases if flow slightly decreases. But (again from above and your example) given the right set of parameters, can self tune to an extent if flow slightly drop for some reason.

So a BeanAnimal with a DRY open channel. Works just like the Herbie, but has added flow capacity (fail-safe) features but still is not one-size-fits-all due to the inability in many situations to not self-tune as flow fluctuates.

BeanAnimal as designed... self regulates both on the increase and decrease of flow and can be built as published for just about any size system and reasonable plumbing cross section.

Have a wonderful day!