Best and cheapest nitrate supplement?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You know that I am not an article linker type of guy. I read, learn and assimilate and sometimes put into action. One was a talk at the St. Louis zoo a long time ago by a marine bacteriologist that mostly was speaking about dinos in hosts, but also free... along with some articles here and there over the years (most study adaptability in low nitrogen environments, but you can find a few that touch on high). Dinos that use transporters specifically designed for depleted environments and will suffer beyond repletion into excess. Cyano and other matting bacteria is well studied to die at fairly low (for us) residual nitrate levels. If you are still skeptical, head over to the dino thread and watch them melt away and disappear when people raise their residual nitrate levels - there is a small factor here where the transporters also have adapted to use no2 and that might play a role with backend dosing only, but this is something that I have not read or heard enough about to speak with most people about... but this requires cutting back on feeding to keep no2 tank levels down which also limits ammonia/ammonium from the corals.

I've never seen evidence of an isolated organism that suffers from slight excess nutrients, and I'd be somewhat surprised if that is what's happening to dinos at 5 ppm nitrate.

I think the competition explanation is far more likely. Competition for something such as space or a needed trace element.

 

[jda]

We are talking about usually 50x more than their normal environment assuming a typical reef no3 level of .1, or so...not 2 or 3x. Also, the death levels are usually more than 5, so 100x or 200x are more like it. Even then, what would populate that space that needs nitrate at 5 that would not thrive at nsw levels, could not get it from ammonia, or whatever?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We are talking about usually 50x more than their normal environment assuming a typical reef no3 level of .1, or so...not 2 or 3x. Also, the death levels are usually more than 5, so 100x or 200x are more like it. Even then, what would populate that space that needs nitrate at 5 that would not thrive at nsw levels, could not get it from ammonia, or whatever?

Algae, bacteria, cyanobacteria, diatoms. Take your pick. I do not know what species it is, and what it is may be tank dependent.

There are just too many treatments for dinos that seem to work (at least some of the time) that are consistent with competition and do not seem consistent with other explanations. These include dosing N, P, or silicate.

There are also things that seem to make dinos worse that are consistent with competition, (e.g., water changes) and not consistent seemingly with most other explanations.

 

[jda]

Since none of those things need dosed nitrate to thrive and should be thriving anyway, there is no way that dosing nitrate can growth limit dinos on the upper end? Seems logical to me.

I also have mused that a lot of this could just be a distraction until some tanks mature on their own and get past this phase.

In any case, this is why I ask the question about helping coral or dealing with dinos and diatoms and stuff. None of this still is a great help with coral, not at least as much as doing other, better things could be.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since none of those things need dosed nitrate to thrive and should be thriving anyway, there is no way that dosing nitrate can growth limit dinos on the upper end? Seems logical to me.

I also have mused that a lot of this could just be a distraction until some tanks mature on their own and get past this phase.

In any case, this is why I ask the question about helping coral or dealing with dinos and diatoms and stuff. None of this still is a great help with coral, not at least as much as doing other, better things could be.

If silicate is low, diatoms will not thrive even with plenty of N and P. I showed that in my tank by dosing silicate and getting a diatom burst, outcompeting the green algae on the glass. I see no reason diatoms could not theoretically do the same against dinos.

Likewise, if nitrate or phosphate are undetectably low, many species of algae can be growth limited.

Low iron is known to limit growth of phytoplankton in some parts of the ocean (maybe most of it). It may logically limit other photosynthetic organisms as well, possibly including dinos. Hence the hypothesis that water changes (indicated as a problem with dinos) provide enough trace elements to prevent growth inhibition of dinos and allow it to grow more. Don't know if that's the explanation, but it seems consistent with known science.

In short, relieving the limitation on growth by low nutrients can allow more competition with dinos:

Nutrients that limit growth in the ocean

Phytoplankton form the basis of the marine food web and are responsible for approximately half of global carbon dioxide (CO2) fixation (∼ 50 Pg of car…

www.sciencedirect.com

"However, the vast majority of oceanic surface waters are depleted in inorganic nitrogen, phosphorus, iron and/or silica; nutrients that limit primary production in the ocean"

 

[jda]

We might be talking past each other. I agree with you when there is growth limiting low levels. However, that is not the case with the vast majority of these anecdotal instances on this board... the typical scenario is newer tank with nitrate around 3-10 (not mature enough to have anoxic zones yet) and P around .05 to .10 where people tell them to raise both to battle dinos with backend dosing. These levels are nearly never close to growth limiting. Besides, even if the N and P were so low to growth limit algae, bacteria, etc. the dinos would be growth limited too.

Although this might be too complex here, we both know that most of these things that potentially "outcompete" don't need to wait to get nitrate and can get their nitrogen in other ways. IIRC, even some types of dinos without transporters can capture whole food (bacteria?) to get their building blocks.

In any case, this is still a high tide raises all ships, until they die from too much, and low tide lowers all ships type of scenario to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. the typical scenario is newer tank with nitrate around 3-10 (not mature enough to have anoxic zones yet) and P around .05 to .10 where people tell them to raise both to battle dinos with backend dosing.

OK, I agree that I would not recommend dosing nitrate if it is above 1-2 ppm or phosphate if it is above 0.02 ppm.

 

[Ocean’s Piece]

Would this be good? Also, can I mix this with a ratio of water and store it or does it need to be mixed before every use? If it can be premixed, what ratio would I need to use?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would this be good? Also, can I mix this with a ratio of water and store it or does it need to be mixed before every use? If it can be premixed, what ratio would I need to use?

I'd recommend food grade or ACS reagent grade. Use this calculator and the entry for potassium nitrate is close enough:

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

 

[Ocean’s Piece]

I'd recommend food grade or ACS reagent grade. Use this calculator and the entry for potassium nitrate is close enough:

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

Ok going to buy this. Should I just mix in 1 ml of fresh water for every gram and store it in a container?

 

[Ocean’s Piece]

Ok going to buy this. Should I just mix in 1 ml of fresh water for every gram and store it in a container?

Correction. Should I mix in 5.4 mLs of fresh water for every 1 gram of sodium nitrate to raise my tanks nitrate levels by 1 ppm (25 gallons of WATER. shows 1.2 for potassium nitrate but that’s very close to that 85% number you were talking about).

Or is there a better amount of water that should be added to a gram of sodium nitrate that would be reasonable to dose? Sorry if I’m coming off confusing, I have a pretty basic understanding of chemistry, but that’s about it.

 

[plankton]

What a great problem to have. As soon as you ‘over stock’ with corals and fish especially if you start feeding fish pellets you will never have low nutrient levels ever again!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Correction. Should I mix in 5.4 mLs of fresh water for every 1 gram of sodium nitrate to raise my tanks nitrate levels by 1 ppm (25 gallons of WATER. shows 1.2 for potassium nitrate but that’s very close to that 85% number you were talking about).

Or is there a better amount of water that should be added to a gram of sodium nitrate that would be reasonable to dose? Sorry if I’m coming off confusing, I have a pretty basic understanding of chemistry, but that’s about it.

The amount of water doesn't matter as long as it dissolves and is easily dispensed.

It's easy to dose a a few mL. If you make it so you add 5 mL (a teaspoon) to the tank to boost nitrate by 2 ppm, that seems a fine strength. The needed concentration to do that obviously depends on tank size.

 

[Ocean’s Piece]

Here's my mixing plan:
For every 1 gram of sodium nitrate added, 7 mLs of freshwater will be mixed, to make 3178 mLs from 454g of sodium nitrate. For every 3.8 mLs of solution added, it will increase nitrate by 1 ppm (displays .88 ppm for Potassium Nitrate)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's my mixing plan:
For every 1 gram of sodium nitrate added, 7 mLs of freshwater will be mixed, to make 3178 mLs from 454g of sodium nitrate. For every 3.8 mLs of solution added, it will increase nitrate by 1 ppm (displays .88 ppm for Potassium Nitrate)

Sounds like a fine plan.