Best Fish to Cycle With

[MnFish1]

@bluprntguy

You quoted this post from me: Its hard for old reefers to start at an empty tank as well :)- especially if there MAY not be a reason for it. In fact - I would suggest the people more likely to be successful using fish to cycle are the 'reefers with more experience'. Maybe (unless one has been done) this is a good subject for a poll. I have not heard any reason on this thread (yet) - why a fishless cycle is 'best practice' as compared to 'the most common practice'. Again - I'm not talking about the people who take a couple damsels use them to cycle a tank - and then toss them in the toilet - because they never wanted damsels (or mollies, or whatever).

You then said 'this isnt true'. What isn't true? Just curious what you were referring to. FWIW - If its the first sentence - if you read the post I was quoting in that statement - It related to 'its hard for new reefers to sit in front staring at an empty tank without fish (paraphrased). I did not mean that its 'hard' (i.e. difficult) to cycle a new tank. (i.e the word 'starting' above in the quote was supposed to read 'staring'

 

[Jon Fishman]

If you are old enough to have been around for awhile, then you have gained some experience in this thing we call life. I'm not referring to reefing knowledge, because of that, I have barely any..... but those who have been around may have seen a fella named Juan Antonio Rodríguez...... better known by most as "Chi-Chi" Rodriguez...... It's life experiences like watching that man play golf, and his horrendously and notoriously ugly golf-swing, that has led me to believe there are often more ways than one to be successful. Fish, fishless.... whatever.... Maybe there was a time where fish-cycling a tank was a big no-no, but maybe now we have the ability to do it in such a controlled manner that it's no longer a big deal..... I don't know.....

I think I'm going to bow out due to my general lack of reef knowledge, and watch some Chi-Chi highlights on youtube though.

 

[casper320]

I just see the virtue signaling as terrible for the hobby. I see freshwater youtubers do it all the time. "If you don't do this you're a horrible person, you should be more like me."

Whether it be not using fish in a cycle, bragging about how environmentally conscious you are or housing fish that are slightly bigger than the recommended gallons.... Allow people to enjoy the hobby how they see fit and stop virtue signaling.

 

[Bob Weigant]

Just came across this thread. I didn’t think people still did this. This is how I was introduced to the hobby in 2005. It has changed for the better and there is no longer a need to use fish for cycling. Dr Tim’s is what I use and it worked great for me

 

[bluprntguy]

Here is a well thought out fish-cycle.

1. Fill the aquarium with salt water have adequate filtration/oxygenation, etc.
2. Add whatever rock/sand you desire - making sure that most if not all of the 'dead things' are removed.
3. Add a marine-specific bottled bacteria that has been stored appropriately, has not expired, (for example Fritz 900) according to instructions
4. Add a reasonable number/size of fish for the tank you're using - as a beginning step you can read the post above where I showed how much ammonia a pair of clowns produce/day.
5. Continue to add bacteria (if instructed in the instructions - some varieties do).
6. Watch your fish. If there is signs of distress or problems - test ammonia. Add more bacteria - or prime if needed (I have never had to add prime).
7. If you want to test ammonia - go ahead and test ammonia nitrate will be rather worthless as any nitrite may show a false positive.
8. If the manufacturer recommends water changes - or no water changes for a certain period - follow those instructions.
9. Feed sparingly over the first couple weeks.
PS - the reason to test ammonia would be if you think you may have overshot the number of fish (i.e. added too many for the bacteria to detoxify). Again - the manufacturer has recommendations of about how many fish to add when starting up.

This is the first time in this entire thread that a somewhat clear and almost reasonable fish based cycling protocol has been posted. Please correct me if I am wrong. I appreciate you starting it, but there are a few things that are lacking:

3. Add a marine-specific bottled bacteria that has been stored appropriately, has not expired, (for example Fritz 900) according to instructions

I'd add a fair warning that occasionally you will purchase a bottle of bacteria that has been stored or transported incorrectly and is dead. You have no control over this and have no way to know what bottles are not viable.

4. Add a reasonable number/size of fish for the tank you're using - as a beginning step you can read the post above where I showed how much ammonia a pair of clowns produce/day.

Someone with less experience probably needs more direction with at least a max. Maybe (1) 1"-2" fish per 40 gallons? I'd not make any assumptions that we all have the same definition of "reasonable". I'd also note that it's best to keep the number of fish low and slowly add fish so that you don't overwhelm the biological filtration that is still building.

6. Watch your fish. If there is signs of distress or problems - test ammonia. Add more bacteria - or prime if needed (I have never had to add prime).

I don't think this is anywhere close to a best practice to wait for visible signs of a distressed fish before recommending testing for ammonia. Someone with less experience may not know what to look for other than a fish floating in the tank. I'd think daily testing is warranted in a new tank. This costs barely nothing and takes 5 minutes while you are watching TV or doing something else. Adding prime simply neutralizes the ammonia for 24 hours. It has to be re-dosed which isn't clear. IMO, a far better solution is 50% water change if anything over .25 ppm and complete water change over .50 ppm and daily dosing of prime to prevent issues going forward. If this happens (and it does happen), something is clearly wrong and I'd suggest dosing additional bacteria, buying a new bottle, or switching brands.

7. If you want to test ammonia - go ahead and test ammonia nitrate will be rather worthless as any nitrite may show a false positive.
PS - the reason to test ammonia would be if you think you may have overshot the number of fish (i.e. added too many for the bacteria to detoxify). Again - the manufacturer has recommendations of about how many fish to add when starting up.

I disagree with this entirely and this is indicative of why I think we shouldn't be recommending fish based cycling in general. Testing ammonia shouldn't be optional. There are probably hundreds of reasons that it could fail and now you have a fish depending on it working. The bacteria may not be viable, they may have calculated the volume of the tank wrong, they may have misread instructions, most of the bacteria may have died leaving only a small percentage viable, the instructions may be wrong, etc. Testing for ammonia should be done daily for at least a week until you are confident that the aquarium is processing ammonia correctly. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I too just cycled a tank without fish and everything doing very well as I just moved most of the livestock over placing the rest in the tank Today

 

[Paul Sands]

Here is a well thought out fish-cycle.

6. Watch your fish. If there is signs of distress or problems - test ammonia. Add more bacteria - or prime if needed (I have never had to add prime).
7. If you want to test ammonia - go ahead and test ammonia nitrate will be rather worthless as any nitrite may show a false positive.

Waiting for fish to shows signs of distress is the type of callous disregard for an animals well being that leads me to vehemently object to using fish to cycle. And what the heck is the resistance to testing for ammonia and nitrate?

I think this has proven that the people that support using a fish to cycle a tank can’t come up with a rational way to do it that even reasonably protects a fish from being tortured.

 

[MnFish1]

This is the first time in this entire thread that a somewhat clear and reasonable fish based cycling protocol has been posted. Please correct me if I am wrong. I appreciate you starting it, but there are a few things that are lacking:



I'd add a fair warning that occasionally you will purchase a bottle of bacteria that has been stored or transported incorrectly and is dead. You have no control over this and have no way to know what bottles are not viable.



Someone with less experience probably needs more direction with at least a max. Maybe (1) 1"-2" fish per 40 gallons? I'd not make any assumptions that we all have the same definition of "reasonable". I'd also note that it's best to keep the number of fish low and slowly add fish so that you don't overwhelm the biological filtration that is still building.



I don't think this is anywhere close to a best practice to wait for visible signs of a distressed fish before recommending testing for ammonia. Someone with less experience may not know what to look for other than a fish floating in the tank. I'd think daily testing is warranted in a new tank. This costs barely nothing and takes 5 minutes while you are watching TV or doing something else. Adding prime simply neutralizes the ammonia for 24 hours. It has to be re-dosed which isn't clear. IMO, a far better solution is 50% water change if anything over .25 ppm and complete water change over .50 ppm and daily dosing of prime to prevent issues going forward. If this happens (and it does happen), something is clearly wrong and I'd suggest dosing additional bacteria, buying a new bottle, or switching brands.



I disagree with this entirely and this is indicative of why I think we shouldn't be recommending fish based cycling in general. Testing ammonia shouldn't be optional. There are probably hundreds of reasons that it could fail and now you have a fish depending on it working. The bacteria may not be viable, they may have calculated the volume of the tank wrong, they may have misread instructions, most of the bacteria may have died leaving only a small percentage viable, the instructions may be wrong, etc. Testing for ammonia should be done daily for at least a week until you are confident that the aquarium is processing ammonia correctly.

First of all - this thread was not designed to 'write a protocol' or to 'debate' using fish to cycle a tank.
Second - In my other post - which I think you quoted - I mentioned that using fish to cycle is probably better left to those more experienced (i.e. anyone can do it - but people with more experience MIGHT have better luck).
Third - I have done numerous cycles with fish. I have never had a problem. So - when I say 'perhaps wait until a fish shows distress (even slight distress) to test ammonia - it is because the vast vast likelihood is that there will never be any distress in the first-place (or any measurable ammonia).
Fourth - I dont disagree that if a person wants to test ammonia they can - but I would point out the other post that I made showing the PPM of ammonia with no bacteria that would be produced in tanks of various sizes with a pair of clowns. IMHO - unless you are using a very small tank - the likelihood that you will even see measurable ammonia in the first 4 days is quite small.
Fifth - No one is recommending fish based cycling. At least I am not. I'm not sure where this comes from. I have successfully used bacteria to start up tanks for many years - so I know it can be done safely, with no deaths, etc. I do this not because its the only way - but because its quick and it works for me.

If in fact, the bacteria in Fritz is nitrifiers - in the concentrations they state on the bottle (I have not done a DNA analysis) - there will be no 'cycle'. So the words 'using a fish to cycle a tank' are not really true. The cycle occurs when a foodstuff enters the water is turned into ammonia and then certain bacteria build up - convert it to nitrite and subsequently to nitrate. If the bacteria is already present (i.e. if you took a 100 gallon tank with live rock, fish, etc - and then set up a new tank and put the old rock in the tank - there would be no 'cycle'. The bacteria is already there...

Lastly - Again - I'm not talking about taking a clean tank and dropping fish in and saying 'sink or swim'. People used to do cycling this way - with 'trash fish' (that they were going to sacrifice after the cycle). I do not believe in this.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Moorish Idols

LOL, I always though Gem tangs would have been better choice.

But seriously, there is no reason to do that. Pull a shrimp out of the freezer and throw it in.

 

[bluprntguy]

@bluprntguy

You quoted this post from me: Its hard for old reefers to start at an empty tank as well :)- especially if there MAY not be a reason for it. In fact - I would suggest the people more likely to be successful using fish to cycle are the 'reefers with more experience'. Maybe (unless one has been done) this is a good subject for a poll. I have not heard any reason on this thread (yet) - why a fishless cycle is 'best practice' as compared to 'the most common practice'. Again - I'm not talking about the people who take a couple damsels use them to cycle a tank - and then toss them in the toilet - because they never wanted damsels (or mollies, or whatever).

You then said 'this isnt true'. What isn't true? Just curious what you were referring to. FWIW - If its the first sentence - if you read the post I was quoting in that statement - It related to 'its hard for new reefers to sit in front staring at an empty tank without fish (paraphrased). I did not mean that its 'hard' (i.e. difficult) to cycle a new tank. (i.e the word 'starting' above in the quote was supposed to read 'staring'

Seems like this is getting off topic, but pretty much all of it isn't true from my perspective. I'm an "old" reefer and I have no problem staring at an empty tank. I use it as an opportunity to plan things out and shop for equipment, corals, and fish. Actually one of the most enjoyable parts.

There's been a myriad of reasons presented in this thread as to why fishless cycling is better practice but you've just chosen to ignore them. There's a lot of things I try to accelerate in this hobby, but establishing biological filtration before introduce living fish to a tank isn't one of them.

 

[MnFish1]

Waiting for fish to shows signs of distress is the type of callous disregard for an animals well being that leads me to vehemently object to using fish to cycle. And what the heck is the resistance to testing for ammonia and nitrate?

You need to take everything in context. I already answered this point - but just for you I'll do it again:

If you look at the data I posted which showed the amount of ammonia produced by a pair of clowns in varying size tanks, the likelihood of any 'distress' or even measurable ammonia is exceedingly small. Thus - there would be very little likelihood of any 'distress'. Take it in that context..
In my post (which was not designed to be the be all and end all - rather merely steps I take) I also said - if you want to test ammonia, etc - great.

I already answered the question about nitrate - and I think most here would agree with me - that there is little utility in checking nitrate when initially starting up a tank. Firstly - nitrite often causes false positive nitrate readings. Secondly - those bacteria - unless introduced - take longer to develop. Third - nitrate is not really 'all that toxic' (nor is nitrite in a marine tank).

There is no callous disregard in my posts.

Lastly - Using a 'fish to cycle' is a misnomer. No one is suggesting just dropping a fish in a tank and allowing a cycle to occur. Instead people have said - if you have live rock (which have bacteria) you should be able to add them to a tank with fish (there should be no cycle). If you add an established filter to a new tank - with adequate bateria for the new inhabitants, you can add fish - there should be no cycle. If you add gravel/sand, etc to establish a filter - you can slowly add fish while the biofilter builds up - but again 'there will be no cycle'. If you add fish and bacteria according to label instructions - there will be no 'cycle'. (the bacteria in all of these methods will process ammonia, and nitrite and eventually nitrate without having measurable amounts - unless overstocked.

By the way - using your logic - I could suggest that people that order fish - and have them shipped across country - often times in cold or too warm conditions - often with ammonia building up in the bag (the only thing preventing the death of the fish (or distress) being the lowered pH of the shipping water) - are showing 'callous disregard'. But I wouldn't think of making such an argument.... Just as I think you shouldn't say I'm showing callous disregard either. Thanks

 

[Paul Sands]

First of all - this thread was not designed to 'write a protocol' or to 'debate' using fish to cycle a tank.
Second - In my other post - which I think you quoted - I mentioned that using fish to cycle is probably better left to those more experienced (i.e. anyone can do it - but people with more experience MIGHT have better luck).
Third - I have done numerous cycles with fish. I have never had a problem. So - when I say 'perhaps wait until a fish shows distress (even slight distress) to test ammonia - it is because the vast vast likelihood is that there will never be any distress in the first-place (or any measurable ammonia).
Fourth - I dont disagree that if a person wants to test ammonia they can - but I would point out the other post that I made showing the PPM of ammonia with no bacteria that would be produced in tanks of various sizes with a pair of clowns. IMHO - unless you are using a very small tank - the likelihood that you will even see measurable ammonia in the first 4 days is quite small.
Fifth - No one is recommending fish based cycling. At least I am not. I'm not sure where this comes from. I have successfully used bacteria to start up tanks for many years - so I know it can be done safely, with no deaths, etc. I do this not because its the only way - but because its quick and it works for me.

If in fact, the bacteria in Fritz is nitrifiers - in the concentrations they state on the bottle (I have not done a DNA analysis) - there will be no 'cycle'. So the words 'using a fish to cycle a tank' are not really true. The cycle occurs when a foodstuff enters the water is turned into ammonia and then certain bacteria build up - convert it to nitrite and subsequently to nitrate. If the bacteria is already present (i.e. if you took a 100 gallon tank with live rock, fish, etc - and then set up a new tank and put the old rock in the tank - there would be no 'cycle'. The bacteria is already there...

Lastly - Again - I'm not talking about taking a clean tank and dropping fish in and saying 'sink or swim'. People used to do cycling this way - with 'trash fish' (that they were going to sacrifice after the cycle). I do not believe in this.

Your unwillingness or inability to provide a process that reasonably protects fish from ammonia during establishment of the biological titration speaks volumes about why cycling with fish should not be recommended to hobbyists as a general rule.

I’ve received more than a few bottles of fritz that were DOA. It’s by far the best bacteria currently available, but even their stringent controls on shipping and storage aren’t enough to protect against occasional mishaps. You should assume all bottled bacteria is dead and test daily to prove that it still works, not the other way around.

 

[MnFish1]

Your unwillingness or inability to provide a process that reasonably protects fish from ammonia during establishment of the biological titration speaks volumes about why cycling with fish should not be recommended to hobbyists as a general rule.

I’ve received more than a few bottles of fritz that were DOA. It’s by far the best bacteria currently available, but even their stringent controls on shipping and storage aren’t enough to protect against occasional mishaps. You should assume all bottled bacteria is dead and test daily to prove that it still works, not the other way around.

I have no disagreement with this. I also don’t recommend using a fish to cycle a tank. Just posted my experiences. I have never had a problem. I’m probably lucky. Edited. That said I wouldn’t hesitate to add fish and bacteria on day 1. Sounds to me like you just solved the problem. Test ammonia daily or however often you want to. This was also in the original post. I just don’t do it

 

[MnFish1]

Since a couple of people want a 'clear protocol':

Materials:
1. Saltwater tank - with appropriate filtration, oxygenation and rock (dead rock) and lights
2. A bacteria source - either bottled bacteria, some sand/etc from an established tank (hard to judge how much to use if you do it this way)/ a filter that has already been through a cycled tank (big enough for the new tank)
3. An ammonia alert source - perhaps badge - like those commonly used in QT tanks - shoudl be used.
4. A plan (just as if you were going to QT a fish) for dealing with elevated ammonia levels. My guess is that around here people would choose <.2 ppm. (water changes, prime (which I avoid) , or another method (like adding more bacteria)
5. Fish (which have been through whatever procedure you follow before putting them into a DT (QT, QT with meds etc )
6. You do not need to add any extra ammonia using this method.

Method:
1. Fill the tank with salt water. Start the filter. Add whatever bacteria source you prefer.
2. 3 hours and 45 minutes later (JK) - 12 hours later - add the fish you've chosen after whatever acclimation procedure you like.
3. Follow the ammonia badge and treat accordingly as per your usual QT method.
4. after 2-3 weeks - add another fish.
5. Continue step 4 until you have added whatever fish/coral you desire.

The goal with this method is to have in place (at the same time that you put in the fish) an adequate amount of nitrifying bacteria present to avoid ANY spike in ammonia - which in turn means there will be no toxicity, etc.

If you desire more 'extensive ammonia' testing - use a more accurate version than the badge - another titration kit.
If there is any evidence of distress - follow the same protocol you would use during quarantine.

This is not designed to create a debate about whether putting fish and a bacteria source in a tank is the 'best way' and it is certainly not the 'only way'. To me it has advantages over fishless cycling - and if done properly - no disadvantages per se.

 

[Michael Goldman]

i try not to subject my fish to any cruelty so i run the tank for weeks with live rock and dr timms bacteria and then add about 4 green chromis who can stay in the tank when its ready check the tank every day and act quickly if parameters change

 

[Michael Goldman]

i try not to subject my fish to any cruelty so i run the tank for weeks with live rock and dr timms bacteria and then add about 4 green chromis who can stay in the tank when its ready check the tank every day and act quickly if parameters change

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

Man i'm about to give up on this every thread someone want to recommend putting some sorry for wording snake oil or some wonderful cure all producted into tank. as far as using fish to cycle I see no problem if done correct as has been stated in this thread. Been done for yrs.

 

[Lasse]

And back to the orginal question.

Looking for options other than Damsels.

Every fish that is well feed, whealty and not timid and that you want to keep in your tank afterwards. Use some frozen artemia as food - if it is a clean start - feed every third day the first week, every second day the second wekk and so on. If you start as you said with rocks from a running aquaria and used sand (and some old water too) feed a few artemia every day. Add nitrification bacteria every day - bacteria in a bottle or own made sollutions. But I think you got this now :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reacclimating 2 the hobby]

I left my post at "+1" because arguing opinions is really a waste of time.

Both methods work, as proven by several members.

 

[Paul Sands]

And back to the orginal question.

Every fish that is well feed, whealty and not timid and that you want to keep in your tank afterwards. Use some frozen artemia as food - if it is a clean start - feed every third day the first week, every second day the second wekk and so on. If you start as you said with rocks from a running aquaria and used sand (and some old water too) feed a few artemia every day. Add nitrification bacteria every day - bacteria in a bottle or own made sollutions. But I think you got this now :)

I think given the thread history, it’s pretty clear that using a fish to cycle a tank isn’t a good practice and shouldn’t be something that is recommended. There are far better ways to cycle a tank. Before you put a fish in the tank you should make sure it’s able to process ammonia. It’s not that hard.

Also, the claim that live rock and bottled bacteria will prevent ammonia spikes in all tanks is complete rubbish. There is a thread on R2R right now of someone that used live rock and bottled bacteria and he’s been battling high ammonia in his tank for months. Thank god he didn’t follow your advice and put a fish in his tank before he insured that ammonia was being processed correctly. That fish would be dead right now.