Best herbivore flake or pellets?

[Freenow54]

Again I have just gotten back from my fishing trip 12,5 hours north in Quebec. Torrential rain every day. Did not get a line in the water. Everyone laughing at me just like on this forum. Sold my motorcycle very sad. But now I am going to focus on Pauls filter and solve the powder problem . I think I have an easy solution which is to roll the wet filter in the powder like a pork chop or chicken. But too easy want to get a tube in the filter

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Dry foods are the main reason most tanks are not immune and need to quarantine. But thats just my opinion.

I just have to say it, it’s a wild and very hard to justify opinion, IMO.

Even if it were true that fish become “immune” by eating foods containing bacteria, which itself is an extraordinary claim, do you think the fish in my tank are not eating all sorts of bacteria-laden things?

Well, I can allay that concern for you. They eat living algae, dead algae that has been decaying in the tank, and all manner of living and dead organisms and detritus that float their way.

 

[Paul B]

Even if it were true that fish become “immune” by eating foods containing bacteria, which itself is an extraordinary claim, do you think the fish in my tank are not eating all sorts of bacteria-laden things?

Bacteria is on everything but "gut" bacteria only comes from guts of animals. I stand by what I say and still feel this is the biggest problem in this hobby and why we have disease threads and kill so many fish. It's also why so many people have to quarantine and use medications.

It's not only gut bacteria that make fish immune but without that, no fish can become immune.
Immunity in all living things is controlled by gut bacteria, and I posted a few "scientific" articles on that.
It's just science and I know you like science.

You can Google how important the gut bacteria is to immunity in 3 minutes. It's all over the place.: I didn't make this stuff up.

The Gut-Immune Connection: An Overview​

The gut-immune connection is a fascinating and intricate relationship that plays a crucial role in maintaining overall health. The gut microbiota, a diverse community of microorganisms residing in our digestive tract, interacts with the immune system in ways that are both complex and dynamic. This interaction is essential for the development and function of the immune system, influencing how our bodies respond to various pathogens and diseases.

Exploring the Gut Microbiota​

The gut microbiota consists of trillions of bacteria, viruses, fungi, and other microorganisms. These tiny inhabitants are not just passive residents; they actively contribute to our health by aiding in digestion, producing essential nutrients, and "protecting against harmful pathogens". The balance of these microorganisms is vital for maintaining a healthy gut and, by extension, a robust immune system and to give an innate immune response.

• Overall, the gut microbiome helps regulate the immune system, ensuring it functions effectively against external threats.
  
  2
  These interactions highlight the importance of a healthy gut microbiome for optimal immune function.

Abstract​

Fish continues to attract considerable scientific interest as they are the most diverse community of vertebrates and a major component of a growing global aquaculture market. Complex assemblages of microbes, collectively known as the gut microbiota, colonize the digestive tracts of vertebrates. The gut microbiome plays a key role in fish health by stimulating immune system growth, assisting in the acquisition of nutrients, and outcompete opportunistic pathogens.

Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Bacteria is on everything but "gut" bacteria only comes from guts of animals. I stand by what I say and still feel this is the biggest problem in this hobby and why we have disease threads and kill so many fish. It's also why so many people have to quarantine and use medications.

It's not only gut bacteria that make fish immune but without that, no fish can become immune.
Immunity in all living things is controlled by gut bacteria, and I posted a few "scientific" articles on that.
It's just science and I know you like science.

You can Google how important the gut bacteria is to immunity in 3 minutes. It's all over the place.:

The Gut-Immune Connection: An Overview​

The gut-immune connection is a fascinating and intricate relationship that plays a crucial role in maintaining overall health. The gut microbiota, a diverse community of microorganisms residing in our digestive tract, interacts with the immune system in ways that are both complex and dynamic. This interaction is essential for the development and function of the immune system, influencing how our bodies respond to various pathogens and diseases.

Exploring the Gut Microbiota​

The gut microbiota consists of trillions of bacteria, viruses, fungi, and other microorganisms. These tiny inhabitants are not just passive residents; they actively contribute to our health by aiding in digestion, producing essential nutrients, and "protecting against harmful pathogens". The balance of these microorganisms is vital for maintaining a healthy gut and, by extension, a robust immune system and to give an innate immune response.

• Overall, the gut microbiome helps regulate the immune system, ensuring it functions effectively against external threats.
  
  2
  These interactions highlight the importance of a healthy gut microbiome for optimal immune function.

You and I have divergent ideas on what causes disease outbreaks in reef aquaria, and in our interpretation of how modern understanding of pathogens and the immune system relates to it.

Can a poor diet lead to problems, including a suboptimal immune system? Absolutely.

Does a tang eating dried nori in a reef tank as part of its diet make it suddenly susceptible to Cryptocaryon irritans, a parasite that is neither a bacteria nor typically present in the guts of clams (a preferred food of yours)? Would a yellow tang living mostly on a diet of clams have a healthier microbiome than one eating mostly dried seaweed? I think we likely disagree on the answers to both of those questions.

Remember, this thread is specifically about herbivores. Here’s how I’d answer those questions:

1. Tangs, and in particular, yellow tangs, are primarily herbivores. They are not mostly consuming the guts of other organisms. Feeding them foods you promote (clams, worms, etc) seems an unlikely way to try to keep their gut bacteria looking like they do in the wild, where you suggest fish are already mostly “immune”. It certainly is known that the types of foods eaten by people greatly impact the microbiome, completely aside from whether those specific foods bring in the bacteria.

2. My tang, the tangs of most people, and the tangs living in the wild, do consume small amounts of other live organisms that are living on the algae they eat. And yet, tangs do get diseases in some tanks. To ascribe that primarily to the dried nature of algae in the diet misses the mark, IMO.

 

[Paul B]

You and I have divergent ideas on what causes disease outbreaks in reef aquaria, and in our interpretation of how modern understanding of pathogens and the immune system relates to it.

This is certainly correct.

Would a yellow tang living mostly on a diet of clams have a healthier microbiome than one eating mostly dried seaweed? I think we likely disagree on the answers to both of those questions.

Yes we do.

. And yet, tangs do get diseases in some tanks.

Never in my tank.

But Randy I enjoy these conversations and as I have said many times, having a very old, immune tank is my scientific experiment. True or not, it doesn't matter to me as I am not here to argue and much to old.

 

[Paul B]

My tang, the tangs of most people, and the tangs living in the wild, do consume small amounts of other live organisms that are living on the algae they eat.

Not on dried nori they don't. But in the sea, they do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Not on dried nori they don't. But in the sea, they do.

Almost no one keeps a tang that eats only dried nori and doesn’t graze on natural algae and other materials in the tank. Mine certainly eats plenty of live and dead but not dried foods, including a lot that it finds on its own.

 

[Yazannreef]

For my auto feeder I use PE mysis pellets and I mix it with avast marine reef jerky. The best combo for different sizes food and nutrition profiles!!

 

[APPTester]

TDO Chroma boost. Everything in my tank goes nuts over it. Including inverts.

Yes, I have that and mine eat it too. Also prime reef flake. I was hoping for a more macroalgae based food to add in. :)

apptester

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m looking for thoughts on what foods for an auto feeder are best for herbivores such as a yellow tang and one spot foxface.

I’ve seen threads in the past, but brands come and go. I already feed sheet nori and Sprung sea veggies pieces and macro from the refugium.

My fish won’t touch Formula 2 flake.

For me- Ocean Nutrition and TDO pellets
41 happy, fat fish

 

[Paul B]

Almost no one keeps a tang that eats only dried nori and doesn’t graze on natural algae and other materials in the tank. Mine certainly eats plenty of live and dead but not dried foods, including a lot that it finds on its own.

Yes I know. But if it gets no living gut bacteria from living or freshly frozen creatures, it will not have any immunity and you will always have to quarantine. It's just the way it is.

But if all fish were immune, these forums would not exist because unfortunately, disease threads are the meat of these places

 

[Yazannreef]

apptester

I like the avast reef jerky a lot:
It's content condist of:

Freeze dried plankton blend of the following genera: Calanus, Mysis, Euphausia, Artemia, Brachionus, Chironomus.

Marine macroalgae: Palmaria palmata, Porphyra umbilicalis, Ulva lactuca

 

[BryanM]

TDO Chroma boost. Everything in my tank goes nuts over it. Including inverts.

This is also what I primarily feed, and I use an auto feeder.

 

[GoAskAlice]

I use these pellets mixed with reef jerky in an Avast feeder--

 

[areefer01]

I use these pellets mixed with reef jerky in an Avast feeder--

This is the Hakari I add to my dry mix. I find in my display using a mix of dry someone will get something at some point in the day. The fish learn the feeding time line and over time know what pellets they prefer. Or at least I think they do. For example my Pink Square Anthias ignore this food but go after the other pellets that drop in the mix. On the other hand my Scopas tang goes for these first then anything else.

Also this food sinks but not like a block of cement at the end of a chain attached to our feet :) The current picks it up and moves it about so it gets consumed.