Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy- can I just ask.

Am I confused or have you previously said/ published that you know of no useful function of iodine in a. Reeftank?

I thought I had read this in one of your old articles?

I’ve stated that there’s no known demonstrated requirement for iodine in most corals (or shrimp, etc). I stand by that. I showed that macroalgae grew about the same with and without it, despite taking it up.

I’m open to there being an antioxidant effect, just as many food items may have antioxidant effects in people. That doesn’t mean they are required, but I could be convinced there are scenarios where they may be useful such as for protection from very bright light. Perhaps if my macroalgae experiments were run in much brighter light, there may have been a difference in something noticeable. Same may be true in some corals. This is a change I’ve come around to over the last few years.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That’s a different scenario Randy.
Reef tanks can thrive at a range of pH and a range of alk, whether higher or lower.

What was being suggested was that bolus dosing leads to a reduced uptake and I’m not sure what science that is based on. Hence my confusion.

Stable tanks at lower ph or Alk can still thrive. That’s a different point altogether. That’s not me confounding….

Your confounding was meant to be between a plausible explanation of the data, and your extrapolation to assume it meant corals were not doing well.

Why is reduced uptake by lower pH different than reduced uptake by bolus dose?

In any case, I’m not even suggesting it must be reduced overall. It may be excessive when the bolus hits the number of transporters optimized for a lower alk, and then reduced uptake when the coral suddenly finds it has more than it wanted, taking a few hours to re-equilibrate. Seems plausible to me, but I have no idea if it reflects reality. But it does fit known science. Organisms need time to control the numbers of membrane transporters they express. It cannot happen instantly, but is always optimized to get what they need without getting too much.

 

[Garf]

I must say that confuses me.
A thriving reef tank with stalled uptake?

In fact I'm fully open to the possibility that a larger fraction of calcification (possibly all) is undertaken at night, as this seems to be evidenced by the tabletop. This is one of the reasons I stayed up for 24hrs recording my consumption. I've also messed around with pH after a few months of stability, calcification stopped for a while, then resumed. As previously noted I'm also open to the possibility that while the calicoblastic layer appears to be in shock, energy may be utilised elsewhere, immunity, parasite resistance etc. But if you've read the thread, you will know all this. In fact, I'm guessing I've spent a lot more google hours than believers, in trying to find the real reasons by it's apparent success, real or not.

 

[Mo.]

Because that is the fallback language Claude conditions people to use when facts are questioned. It is a catch-all to hide from the facts. So “what, exactly, works?” Becomes the question.

lol. Stop it. Claude had nothing to do with that conversation. Lol.

I was making simple observations from my own system, which I still am. I was just told that what I was seeing wasn’t true, full stop. but that narrative has at least now relaxed a little. I guess because stat dosing (for those that don’t know, stat means immediate and is similar to bolus) has been used for years as a stat bolus. lol.

Btw, I’ve patented the Stat method. lol.

 

[Mo.]

I’ve stated that there’s no known demonstrated requirement for iodine in most corals (or shrimp, etc). I stand by that. I showed that macroalgae grew about the same with and without it, despite taking it up.

I’m open to there being an antioxidant effect, just as many food items may have antioxidant effects in people. That doesn’t mean they are required, but I could be convinced there are scenarios where they may be useful such as for protection from very bright light. Perhaps if my macroalgae experiments were run in much brighter light, there may have been a difference in something noticeable. Same may be true in some corals. This is a change I’ve come around to over the last few years.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Mo.]

Your confounding was meant to be between a plausible explanation of the data, and your extrapolation to assume it meant corals were not doing well.

Why is reduced uptake by lower pH different than reduced uptake by bolus dose?

In any case, I’m not even suggesting it must be reduced overall. It may be excessive when the bolus hits the number of transporters optimized for a lower alk, and then reduced uptake when the coral suddenly finds it has more than it wanted, taking a few hours to re-equilibrate. Seems plausible to me, but I have no idea if it reflects reality. But it does fit known science. Organisms need time to control the numbers of membrane transporters they express. It cannot happen instantly, but is always optimized to get what they need without getting too much.

Ok, so that is only referring to a possible explanation of the table top effect on Alk?

You think that coral metabolism drops in the middle of the light cycle and creates a tabletop effect on alk and that is a plausible explanation?

I get that metabolic gates/ transporters etc open and close and new ones are created to match demand, but in the face of consistent supply, said channels tend to increase to meet the demand, either in the same tissue, or because coral mass increases- they tend not to remain overwhelmed in biological systems. And if this explanation were the case, the alk would eventually shift to high levels and demand for Alk would drop, due to reduced metabolism. That is the opposite to observed practice. Alk demand goes up significantly, or at least has in my system and so does coral growth.

So, corals having a lunchtime siesta in the baking sun still doesn’t ring true with me.

 

[Garf]

Alk demand goes up significantly

Is this not just a remnant of the Fauna Marin bicarb solution being half as potent as Fauna sais it is? If calcium demand has not increased in line (I know it's probably more difficult to ascertain this as Fauna calcium is mega strength), then it's not a calcium carbonate deposition increase that's evidenced, but rather further evidence of the lack of bicarb potency, relative to the Fauna calculator. Sorry, I can't remember if you are using the Fauna calculator, or even their bicarb and trace. Cheers

 

[GARRIGA]

Well this thread is interesting. Now Reefbum is adopting Bolus dosing and recently came out with a new video stating this . I am sure that since he is a consultant for FM that may have been a factor. He is a very experienced reefer so he has pretty sound logic.

Why I don't listen to influencers peddling products for profit regardless how experienced or successful. I'll glean that said and decide for myself based on most logical understanding.

 

[Mo.]

Is this not just a remnant of the Fauna Marin bicarb solution being half as potent as Fauna sais it is? If calcium demand has not increased in line (I know it's probably more difficult to ascertain this as Fauna calcium is mega strength), then it's not a calcium carbonate deposition increase that's evidenced, but rather further evidence of the lack of bicarb potency, relative to the Fauna calculator. Sorry, I can't remember if you are using the Fauna calculator, or even their bicarb and trace. Cheers

It’s all relative, so it doesn’t matter?

I’m using more of the same potency Alk product than I used to- so my demand has gone up? Unless you feel the Alk solution gets weaker and weaker while it sits in the tub? Whilst others don’t?

I don’t really bother with theoretical calculators much.

I dosed, check the Alk, dose a bit more and found a steady daily amount. That became my bolus amount.

The amount dosed of the same product has nearly doubled over the last few months. The trajectory is upwards, not downwards.

I’m guessing if the method wasn’t “working” or the corals were stressing, I’d start to need less and less of the weak sauce Alk solution?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So, corals having a lunchtime siesta in the baking sun still doesn’t ring true with me.

It may not be. One of the reasons for my requested experiments is to understand exactly how consumption of alk over the course of a day is different in bolus vs spread out dosing with everything else the same in the same system. We do not have that info, so that makes it more difficult to understand what is taking place.

 

[BeanAnimal]

lol. Stop it. Claude had nothing to do with that conversation. Lol.

Of course "Claude" had something to do with it -- his products and claims are the basis of the entire thread.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So, corals having a lunchtime siesta in the baking sun still doesn’t ring true with me.

Except that there are studies that show this to be the case with regard to photo inhibition as a protective mechanism.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The amount dosed of the same product has nearly doubled over the last few months. The trajectory is upwards, not downwards.

My dosage is spread evenly throughout the day in 1ml increments. The dosage is roughly 4x more than it was a year ago, and almost 2x what it was a few months ago. Coral growth can be nearly exponential, and as such in a healthy tank, resource consumption can (and should) rise accordingly.

Sure, at some point the growth restricts flow, shades itself and other corals, and/or resources become scares -- so not truly exponential -- but you get the point.

 

[Oldreefer44]

It’s all relative, so it doesn’t matter?

I’m using more of the same potency Alk product than I used to- so my demand has gone up? Unless you feel the Alk solution gets weaker and weaker while it sits in the tub? Whilst others don’t?

I don’t really bother with theoretical calculators much.

I dosed, check the Alk, dose a bit more and found a steady daily amount. That became my bolus amount.

The amount dosed of the same product has nearly doubled over the last few months. The trajectory is upwards, not downwards.

I’m guessing if the method wasn’t “working” or the corals were stressing, I’d start to need less and less of the weak sauce Alk solution?

Same here.

 

[Pod_01]

I don’t really bother with theoretical calculators much.

I dosed, check the Alk, dose a bit more and found a steady daily amount. That became my bolus amount.

hmmm…. where did I see that line before…

You embrace the FM philosophy completely and without reservation.

Even when FM Alk is proven to be at reduced potency vs. advertised value...
Broken buffer system, old tank syndrome, tiny crystals, organic peptide polymer etc…

“Time to move on”…

 

[BeanAnimal]

The real question — what the heck is a theoretical calculator in this context. He (Claude) twists basic words and concepts into pretzels to give the impression that there is something novel in everything he says.

What would a theoretical dosing calculator actually calculate — and who would ever use one? Isn’t testing at some interval pretty much the only way of successfully dosing anything long term?

To that end, if anything is theoretical, it is the FM balling light calculator, as it assumes a concentration that does not exist in reality.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

To be fair, I suspect and hope they mean that theoretical calculations based on a per gallon basis are not part of the method. Perhaps that’s a dig at TM and AFR, which is one of the few products that I am aware of that has a per gallon calculator rather than an alk or calcium need calculator.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Fair enough in that context… even of the followers appear to repeat it in other contexts.

 

[Mo.]

Of course "Claude" had something to do with it -- his products and claims are the basis of the entire thread.

I meant he had nothing to do with what Inposted.

Except that there are studies that show this to be the case with regard to photo inhibition as a protective mechanism.

Sorry, are you guys now implying that bolus method somehow causes photo inhibition in the middle of the light cycle? Lol

 

[Mo.]

The real question — what the heck is a theoretical calculator in this context. He (Claude) twists basic words and concepts into pretzels to give the impression that there is something novel in everything he says.

What would a theoretical dosing calculator actually calculate — and who would ever use one? Isn’t testing at some interval pretty much the only way of successfully dosing anything long term?

To that end, if anything is theoretical, it is the FM balling light calculator, as it assumes a concentration that does not exist in reality.

Maybe crossed wires, but I was referring to the calculators that have been referenced in this thread, that calculate dosages etc. I just happened to call them theoretical as they give a calculated dose that may not give the exact effect expected due to say water volume differences etc.

I didn’t mean anything else by it.