BROWN SAND: CYANO, DIATOMS, DINO?

[shawn16nano]

Hi all,
I have had this brown sand for coming up on a year now. The 16 gallon is 8 years old and is doing great other than the sand. The sand starts white every morning and turns into a brownish orange by mid day along the front glass. I have a Kessil a160 over the tank so I do not think lighting is the issue. I run carbon and GFO and do a 4 gallon water change weekly. I use reef crystals with RODI water. I am new to the forum and any help on identification or source of the problem would be greatly appreciated for this seemingly never ending battle.

This photo was taken a few hours after a sand syphoning

this is what all of the sand looks like by the end of the day in the front of the tank if there has not been any crap or snail traffic through the area.

 

[sfin52]

Ok. here's a version of a Dino testing protocol for those without microscope. I think it may be more helpful than flying blind. There's two version: first is just good for telling if you have mostly cyano or not (more helpful than it sounds). 2nd is a modified paper towel test to filter out cyano and distinguish between diatoms and dinos by the regrouping tendency of dinos.
anyway...
Test 1: Peroxide Test - dinos/diatoms don't bubble.
Do you see brown/rust/red colored strings or mats that lessen overnight and strengthen during the day? bubbles during lights on? Odds are 99% it's cyano or dinos. Here's how you can tell if it's mostly cyano...
Suck up some material. I didn't have much to work with, left is cyano, right is a few dinos in debris.

left pic: samples, center pic: cyano, right pic: detritus with Large Cell Amphidinium Dinoflagellates hiding in it. Note how those strands could be interpreted as cyano or dino mucus. Let's find out which...
Add water until you have 100mL of sample, then add 5mL of common 3% hydrogen peroxide.
The cyano starts showing bubbles at 3mL or so, but by 5mL of H2O2 it should become really clear...

All cyano strands developed lots of bubbles. Even the tiny ones. Some start floating up.

No bubble production at the site of dinos. Right pic, the brown patches are dino clumps. Only one very tiny bubble in the center of the pic.

Should be really clear where you have significant cyano present and where you don't.

2nd Test in another post....

2nd Test: Coffee Filter Test

Find a brown patch or strings, take samples ( I pulled a mix of dinos/cyano), add tank water until you have 100mL, put in a container you can shake thoroughly

Filters: filter size can be seen by holding it up to a diffuse light and see what is visible. Far left: paper towel - too small to allow many dinos through. center left: coffee filter - just right. Center right: filter floss - too large and allows cyano through. Far right: filter pad - way too large.

All same magnification - Left: coffee filter, Center: paper towel, Right: Large Cell Amphidinium Dinos (brown cells) and debris. Paper towel is likely to block too much and let through almost no dino cells.

after pouring through the coffee filter, the water looks very clear...

but after 15 minutes even the small # of dino cells in this sample form visible brown clumps.

and microscope confirms that these brown clumps are in fact where dinos have gathered together and pulled their mucus and debris with them.
Diatoms will also pass through the coffee filter like dinos, but will not re-gather in brown clumps/strings like this.

You will still need a microscope at some point to be certain what kind of Dino you have, and plus the microscopic world of a reef tank is super-cool, but maybe this can help some people figure out if they have dinos or not.

Welcome to reef2reef. Two tests for Dino without a microscope. I hope that helps to rule out Dino. What an amazing looking tank.

 

[shawn16nano]

Thanks for the reply! So i tried to conduct the peroxide test here. I was not able siphon any off of the sand without taking sand as well since it was adhered. I transferred everything into a clear container and let it sit for about five minutes and it started to form this hazy mucus in the water. I added peroxide and it did bubble a little out of the sand but i did not see any bubbles coming from the mucus. This test seems a little inconclusive to me since it looks more like the cyano picture but behaved like the dino.

 

[brandon429]

you can easily do a disassembly full tank cleaning/skip cycle rebuild, and opt out of it altogether without knowing any of its characters. that's not insulting to your reef, its regenerating.

that option exists, and nanos have it much easier than other tanks. our sand rinse thread is coming up to 8 pages doing exactly these steps~ ur tank is great candidate.

I run your exact lighting setup. that invader and similar cousins love the higher white setting like the pic shows, I run mine all blue to help suppress similar growths. don't chase nutrients, this isn't a problem you are showing its what belongs on a reef, its what we are wanting that's backwards. that's easy to attain in the sand rinse thread for sure.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/

we show in that thread the number one risk to your nano is hesitation, not species. your invader isn't bad at all, some would just live with it until it subsides on its own. That's a legit option, so is being totally free of any invader by nine pm tonite, all legit. a nano tanker only needs to opt in or out, a large tanker can't opt in as easy to simple cleaning runs.


Here's a nine year cleanup, in a densely stocked nano to show pre modeling of events before you consider.
https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/to...ico-reef-last-full-tank-shot-before-cleaning/

 

[sfin52]

I hope it’s not Dino and something else. If it is does not mean end of the tank and reset is needed.

Some Dino can look like cyno. There is a type that lives in the sand bed. Given enough time it will go to rock and wall of the tank.

What is your po4 and No3 numbers.
@mcarroll advice please

 

[mcarroll]

I have had this brown sand for coming up on a year now. The 16 gallon is 8 years old and is doing great other than the sand.

So this is an 8 year old tank, but this problem has just surfaced a year ago, correct?

If that's right, then the first question is "what changed a year ago?" because if there's an answer, that's the root cause.

I only have the pics to go on, but that looks like a VERY low-flow tank. If so, that's definitely a consideration as well.

How is your cleanup crew doing and what do you have in the crew now?

What have your historical NO3 and PO4 test results been like? What are they currently?

 

[shawn16nano]

So this is an 8 year old tank, but this problem has just surfaced a year ago, correct?

If that's right, then the first question is "what changed a year ago?" because if there's an answer, that's the root cause.

I only have the pics to go on, but that looks like a VERY low-flow tank. If so, that's definitely a consideration as well.

How is your cleanup crew doing and what do you have in the crew now?

What have your historical NO3 and PO4 test results been like? What are they currently?

Yes that is all correct. what changed a year ago is I started running GFO and i dropped a powerhead (interesting you mention that). I have 150 GPM from a canister filter and about the same from a 180 GPM nano powerhead that is turned down a little on a rotating water deflector. I had a Hydor 240 powerhead in previously however when adding some new corals I could not position it without the water diffusing off of the glass and blasting a coral since it is a small tank. This could be an experiment I attempt again. As for the clean up crew I have 6 crabs and 2 nassarius snails. I seem to have bad luck with all other types of snails falling over and getting eaten after a few weeks. The clean up crew I have now seems to be a nice size since there are no visible signs of any algae on the rocks. I do not test for phosphates yet but I do use rodi and feed light for only two fish. My nitrates are very stable between 3 and 4 ppm,this is due to a religious 4 gallon weekly water change and sand siphon.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[iemsparticus]

I would be shocked if it was Diatoms, so long as your RODI water was at 0 TDS. You’ve done nothing to add silicates, so unless your RODI doesn’t test at 0 TDS, I’d cross that out.

What was going on to cause you to add GFO to the tank?

 

[shawn16nano]

I would be shocked if it was Diatoms, so long as your RODI water was at 0 TDS. You’ve done nothing to add silicates, so unless your RODI doesn’t test at 0 TDS, I’d cross that out.

What was going on to cause you to add GFO to the tank?

I replace all of the rodi components every year and the water tests 0 TDS. I added GFO as a final polish to help keep algae on the glass to a minimum. It seems to be doing the trick but at the same time I have upped my game on the water changes. I do not know what it would do if i removed it, it was just something I experimented with and I still use it. Not saying I have the best rhyme or reason for it just trying to learn as I go and gave it a try.

 

[iemsparticus]

So my assumption for now is going to be that the GFO nukes your PO4 to nothing, which allows Dino’s to out compete anything else... and that you now have Dino’s on your sand.

I $10 microscope from Amazon will help confirm, and getting a PO4 test kit would be good as well, so we can tell exactly where you are at.

 

[sfin52]

I would stop the gfo

 

[mcarroll]

Take all that advice! Nutrients and algae are not your enemies.

Things that thrive under nutrient depletion are evil. That’s what you have going on presently.

Consider a Tunze 6020 or 6040 for added flow. Better format.

Run that dino test ASAP and get back to us.

A microscope will be helpful too!

 

[shawn16nano]

Its time to revisit what sounds like a dino issue. I have taken the advise of running an additional powerhead to really get some good flow in the tank. I have also added a rotating water deflector on an existing powerhead to break up the flow pattern. I have since stopped using GFO (end of November) and have continued to do 4 gallon weekly water changed on the 16 gallon tank. I have seen no impact other than corals moving more in the current and possibly a little more algae in the hard to clean areas. lets assume this is dino for a minute. I have read plenty of articles and watched videos about how to rid dino. I have seen 3 day blackouts, H2O2 dosing, sand bed removal, various medications, and there's always starting the tank over. I do not believe I have a severe case since it stays off the rocks it may creep on the glass a bit it does not look bubbly and stringy like most dino pics however it seems to behave relatively similar. Can anyone please shed some light on what would be the next appropriate step.

 

[iemsparticus]

Its time to revisit what sounds like a dino issue. I have taken the advise of running an additional powerhead to really get some good flow in the tank. I have also added a rotating water deflector on an existing powerhead to break up the flow pattern. I have since stopped using GFO (end of November) and have continued to do 4 gallon weekly water changed on the 16 gallon tank. I have seen no impact other than corals moving more in the current and possibly a little more algae in the hard to clean areas. lets assume this is dino for a minute. I have read plenty of articles and watched videos about how to rid dino. I have seen 3 day blackouts, H2O2 dosing, sand bed removal, various medications, and there's always starting the tank over. I do not believe I have a severe case since it stays off the rocks it may creep on the glass a bit it does not look bubbly and stringy like most dino pics however it seems to behave relatively similar. Can anyone please shed some light on what would be the next appropriate step.

Did you get that cheap microscope?

 

[mcarroll]

I have seen 3 day blackouts, H2O2 dosing, sand bed removal, various medications, and there's always starting the tank over.

None of that works if it's really a dino outbreak. Look at the old dino thread linked at the top of the first post in my dino thread for lots of attempts at everything under the sun, including laundry bleach. I MEAN LOTS OF ATTEMPTS. LOTS. No verifiable successes. None.

Can anyone please shed some light on what would be the next appropriate step.

Take a sample of your dinos. Put it in a vial or equivalent and shake it up - homogenize it. Then let it sit - ideally under a light. If it re-coagualtes and gets "snotty" then it's dino's. If not, then if not likely to be dino's.

Also the microscope....regardless of what organism it is.

If you aren't "managing nutrients up" to recommended levels, then I would begin that immediately. PO4 ≥ 0.10 ppm and NO3 ≥ 5-10 ppm. <---This could be all you need to really turn things around if the outbreak is very mild.

 

[shawn16nano]

Thank you,

I may invest in a Hannah PO4 checker to verify. my nitrates are always between 3 and 4ppm. I tried to do the dino test once before but was not able to collect a sample without also taking up a good bit of sand. I was watching the BRS ULM tank trials this morning () and noticed around 25-30 seconds in when they were showing the 160 that they had a few darker orange looking spots up against the rocks that to me looked very similar. It more or less looks like it is just staining the sand rather than a snotty goo like dino or cyano on the surface. I will check out the dino thread and see if I dig up any more info.

Thanks again

 

[brandon429]

Imo what's going on in your nano:


It's already tank of the month material and this is what an eight year old reef does. In fact yours is better than most if you have not been purposefully cleaning that sandbed this whole time.

Those are the diversities that grow on a perfect ideal grazer supporting reef

I see your growth oppositely, it's an indication of health and balance. If you want it gone still, not a prob.


It means if you took one time to blast clean the whole bed your arrangement of variables will keep it sharp a long long time

You are going to get way better mileage than i do in my blast rinses. GFo likely helps reduce your workload.

If you did nothing, totm due to age and healthy fill in of corals and coloration on rocks is deserved. The light growth patches enhance the system, not degrade it, to scuba divers. It's what they see


But if you wanted it gone, the first thing I'd do is consider any source that pulls it off for eight pages in a row- sand rinse thread. You have a great reef


You can count eight year old nanos worldwide on two or so hands.

To make the invader cease we would not need to identify it nor change anything in your clearly working nutrient palette. We would add your system to page nine of skip cycle sandbed rinses. The sandbed houses nothing you need. In fact, let's go all new bed, highly pre rinsed before addition of course.

That's the simplest invasion to wipe out.

 

[nano reef]

I realize this is an old thread but maybe someone can help me. I cant really identify whatI have going on because it dosnt fit the norm. To star t with I added 30 frags to a 5 or 6 month old 36 gallon.! Way to many but won most of them. My nitrates shot up from 5 to 80! So I stared adding nopox. I was an idiot that I keep adding it once it got to 10 which was pretty quickly but woulnt budge under 10 so keep adding for weeks without a water change and thats all I had to do to finally get it to 3!

I usually change water weekly to 10 days. I also used gfo so phospates were pretty low but bottomed out to zero after nopox. I had no algae before the waterchange but after nopox then my sand bed and walls looked just like the persons in the pic. I dont know how to post pics but wish I did. I have been dosing vibrant 2 x'scounting to day so 1 x a week and MB7 2 x's a week and it seemed to get better but came back again hard right after water change. I have heard that if phos. is 0 and comes on after waterchange its likely dino's. Its not snotty or weblike. Looks like diatoms but heavy. I notice where it is on glass has bubbles attched to glass. maybe a few fine looking sort hairs of algae here and there mixed in.

Does all this mean its dino's or maybe cyano? Its also not snotty like cyano and its a brownish green in color. I do have a few patches of GHA on my rocks. I cleaned most of my rock with peroxide but ran out so couldnt finish all but its coating my rocks or the ones I didnt clean. The ones I clean are along the back wall and dont get as much light. I mean they are touching backwall. Like arches and tonga branch.

My biggest problem and maybe why it came back is I have to do waterchanges. it had gotten a lot better b4 WC and was looking like it ws working but afraid if I keep doing WC I wont get anywhere.

When I added all those frags it threw everything off and alk was dropping like crazy! down to 6.4 now its getting better but very erratic. I am scared to do 2 part because last time after wc it sustained for 5 days then maybe drop 0.1 then maybe 0..3 its just not consitent so I cant dial in a dose so by 10 days it stars getting to 7.0 and about to get to low so I do a WC. Also most frags are small and only few sps so I really shouldnt need to dose a tank so young. Also these bacteria say they also lower the nutrients so I am not sure what to do. How am I supposed to p nutrients when the stuff to fight dino's and cyano also lowers them? I am also dosing neophos and getting nowhere plus feeding corals nightly! Apreciate any help! I am at my witts end!

 

[vetteguy53081]

I realize this is an old thread but maybe someone can help me. I cant really identify whatI have going on because it dosnt fit the norm. To star t with I added 30 frags to a 5 or 6 month old 36 gallon.! Way to many but won most of them. My nitrates shot up from 5 to 80! So I stared adding nopox. I was an idiot that I keep adding it once it got to 10 which was pretty quickly but woulnt budge under 10 so keep adding for weeks without a water change and thats all I had to do to finally get it to 3!

I usually change water weekly to 10 days. I also used gfo so phospates were pretty low but bottomed out to zero after nopox. I had no algae before the waterchange but after nopox then my sand bed and walls looked just like the persons in the pic. I dont know how to post pics but wish I did. I have been dosing vibrant 2 x'scounting to day so 1 x a week and MB7 2 x's a week and it seemed to get better but came back again hard right after water change. I have heard that if phos. is 0 and comes on after waterchange its likely dino's. Its not snotty or weblike. Looks like diatoms but heavy. I notice where it is on glass has bubbles attched to glass. maybe a few fine looking sort hairs of algae here and there mixed in.

Does all this mean its dino's or maybe cyano? Its also not snotty like cyano and its a brownish green in color. I do have a few patches of GHA on my rocks. I cleaned most of my rock with peroxide but ran out so couldnt finish all but its coating my rocks or the ones I didnt clean. The ones I clean are along the back wall and dont get as much light. I mean they are touching backwall. Like arches and tonga branch.

My biggest problem and maybe why it came back is I have to do waterchanges. it had gotten a lot better b4 WC and was looking like it ws working but afraid if I keep doing WC I wont get anywhere.

When I added all those frags it threw everything off and alk was dropping like crazy! down to 6.4 now its getting better but very erratic. I am scared to do 2 part because last time after wc it sustained for 5 days then maybe drop 0.1 then maybe 0..3 its just not consitent so I cant dial in a dose so by 10 days it stars getting to 7.0 and about to get to low so I do a WC. Also most frags are small and only few sps so I really shouldnt need to dose a tank so young. Also these bacteria say they also lower the nutrients so I am not sure what to do. How am I supposed to p nutrients when the stuff to fight dino's and cyano also lowers them? I am also dosing neophos and getting nowhere plus feeding corals nightly! Apreciate any help! I am at my witts end!

Post a couple of pics and your curtrents parameters especially nitrate and phosphate levels.

 

[nano reef]

I will add pics tomorrow when hubby shows me how! LOL Nitrates are 3 and phosphates are 0