BRS Balling Hybrid - incorrect instructions from BRS?

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ConsummatePro

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@Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner I’m confused: why does the BRS hybrid Balling require 4 components in addition to the A&K elements?

If I read correctly, this kit has:

1. Calcium chloride (plus K elements)
2. Soda Ash (plus A elements)
3. BRS Magnesium blend
4. Tropic Marin Part C

Wouldn’t the TM Part C take care of the magnesium component? Doesn’t this effectively double up the Magnesium dosing? Seems to me we don’t need the BRS Magnesium if we have TM Part C. Or am I missing something?
 

dedragon

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not sure as i dont use this but i would guess that the magnesium blend part is more for corrections of magnesium levels while the tropic marin part c handles most of the daily magnesium and also trace elements needed. Probably so you dont overdose the trace elements but again i dont use this so not really sure
 

Reefinmike

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Your thought process is spot on. I don’t have exact numbers but the part C is at least 80% by weight anhydrous magnesium chloride and sulfate. It’s there to maintain magnesium levels as salinity rises(and you remove excess seawater). My reef is mostly montipora with only 3 water changes per year but it has a massive dosing demand ~3.5dkh per day running my *better* dosing system with a hybrid ABC. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/s...and-brs’s-recipes-with-concentrations.884071/

i’ve dose a few bucketfulls of dry ABC/ yr and have only needed a few pounds of magnesium over the last 5 years- 2-3 dosing events.

i feel the a/k is over priced and under delivers. The dosing instructions/methodology is hazy at best. I’d have to spend ~$80/mo on a/k according to their recommendations. That is more than i spend on electricity and water combined!!! I don’t feel I’m missing out on anything significant…

it’s also important to note that brs’s dosing recommendations for a hybrid ABC system isn’t consistent or stoichemetrically(sp?) balanced.
 

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lynn.reef.nerd

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Your thought process is spot on. I don’t have exact numbers but the part C is at least 80% by weight anhydrous magnesium chloride and sulfate. It’s there to maintain magnesium levels as salinity rises(and you remove excess seawater). My reef is mostly montipora with only 3 water changes per year but it has a massive dosing demand ~3.5dkh per day running my *better* dosing system with a hybrid ABC. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/standardizing-abc-dosing-to-mesh-rhf-tm-and-brs’s-recipes-with-concentrations.884071/

i’ve dose a few bucketfulls of dry ABC/ yr and have only needed a few pounds of magnesium over the last 5 years- 2-3 dosing events.

i feel the a/k is over priced and under delivers. The dosing instructions/methodology is hazy at best. I’d have to spend ~$80/mo on a/k according to their recommendations. That is more than i spend on electricity and water combined!!! I don’t feel I’m missing out on anything significant…

it’s also important to note that brs’s dosing recommendations for a hybrid ABC system isn’t consistent or stoichemetrically(sp?) balanced.
I am jealous of your electric/water.

My electric last month alone (high demand because of extreme weather) was over $800 :(
 

spsick

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Only scenario I can see you would need the mag is if your salt mix comes in lower. I use blue bucket with BRS+part c and have not had to dose magnesium in over a year on a tank full of sps.
 
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Your thought process is spot on. I don’t have exact numbers but the part C is at least 80% by weight anhydrous magnesium chloride and sulfate. It’s there to maintain magnesium levels as salinity rises(and you remove excess seawater). My reef is mostly montipora with only 3 water changes per year but it has a massive dosing demand ~3.5dkh per day running my *better* dosing system with a hybrid ABC. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/standardizing-abc-dosing-to-mesh-rhf-tm-and-brs’s-recipes-with-concentrations.884071/

i’ve dose a few bucketfulls of dry ABC/ yr and have only needed a few pounds of magnesium over the last 5 years- 2-3 dosing events.

i feel the a/k is over priced and under delivers. The dosing instructions/methodology is hazy at best. I’d have to spend ~$80/mo on a/k according to their recommendations. That is more than i spend on electricity and water combined!!! I don’t feel I’m missing out on anything significant…

it’s also important to note that brs’s dosing recommendations for a hybrid ABC system isn’t consistent or stoichemetrically(sp?) balanced.
Wow that’s an impressive tank!

Thanks for the information. To clarify it seems you’ve made a more concentrated TM Part C successfully. Could we then use the basic BRS Alk and Ca recipes (standard concentration) but then make Tropic Marin Part C at double concentration and dose it 1:1 with the Alk? If I understand the original instruction required 2x part C to Alk.
 

Lou Ekus

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@Lou Ekus @Hans-Werner I’m confused: why does the BRS hybrid Balling require 4 components in addition to the A&K elements?

If I read correctly, this kit has:

1. Calcium chloride (plus K elements)
2. Soda Ash (plus A elements)
3. BRS Magnesium blend
4. Tropic Marin Part C

Wouldn’t the TM Part C take care of the magnesium component? Doesn’t this effectively double up the Magnesium dosing? Seems to me we don’t need the BRS Magnesium if we have TM Part C. Or am I missing something?
The amount of Mg in the Balling Part C, is only the amount that is needed, along with the other Balling PArt C components, to ionically balance the amount of sodium chloride left over (created) as a result of the calcium chloride and sodium carbonate (or bicarbonate) components. This meane that the Mg in the Balling Part C, if used as directed, will do nothing to "supplement" for the Mg in the system that gets taken up (or used) in the calcification process. This is why, whether using the full true Balling Method, or some other two part method with the addition of the Balling Part C, you will still need a periodic additional input of Mg to supplement for used Mg.
 
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ConsummatePro

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Thanks, @Lou Ekus This is starting to make sense. I now understand needing to top up Mg (and trace elements) separately, so that clarifies the "4" part issue. I also get that a full change over to the TM Bolling ABC would be easiest but I already have tons of the BRS stuff. I just picked up Elements A and K, but deciding should I just change out BRS Mg to Bolling C.

Can I ask another question: what is the advantage of using the TM Bolling C over using the standard BRS Mg dosing as the 3rd part, assuming all 3 are regularly dosed for the Alk needs of the tank? In other words, is the BRS Mag solution sufficient to handle the excess NaCl from 2 part, or is it something else in the TM Balling C that better balances the NaCL issue beyond just Mg infusion?

I'm more than happy to change out the BRS Mag to TM Balling C, but just trying to understand the chemistry and the rationale over "just" the standard BRS Mg.
 

Lou Ekus

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Thanks, @Lou Ekus This is starting to make sense. I now understand needing to top up Mg (and trace elements) separately, so that clarifies the "4" part issue. I also get that a full change over to the TM Bolling ABC would be easiest but I already have tons of the BRS stuff. I just picked up Elements A and K, but deciding should I just change out BRS Mg to Bolling C.

Can I ask another question: what is the advantage of using the TM Bolling C over using the standard BRS Mg dosing as the 3rd part, assuming all 3 are regularly dosed for the Alk needs of the tank? In other words, is the BRS Mag solution sufficient to handle the excess NaCl from 2 part, or is it something else in the TM Balling C that better balances the NaCL issue beyond just Mg infusion?

I'm more than happy to change out the BRS Mag to TM Balling C, but just trying to understand the chemistry and the rationale over "just" the standard BRS Mg.
The big advantage of the Balling Part C over just Mg is that the Balling Part C also contains all the other components of natural sea water. So if you are just adding the Mg necessary to ionically balance the left over sodium chloride from whatever you are using for Ca and alkalinity, then the other sea water components get even more depleted by the addition of the "balancing" Mg. With the Balling Part C, you are adding EVERYTHING found in natural sea water except sodium chloride, Ca and alkalinity. In this way, you perfectly ionically balance that left over NaCl. It would be like adding a little extra complete sea salt to the tank. Then, as long as you keep your salinity in line, the sea water solution in the tank stays ionically balanced. If you go with just the Mg instead of everything, then keep the salinity the same, all of the othr components of natural sea water that you are not supplementing (trace elements that you are not adding) must get depleted. People will debate how important that actually is. But even the people that say it is not important depletion, acknowledge that the chemistry of the solution does work that way. Our feeling is that the trace element depletion, in that situation, is detrimental.
 
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Thanks so much @Lou Ekus ! This all makes sense now. I’m going to pick up part C this weekend and make the switch!

One last question: as of right now using the BRS 2 part plus a separate Mg, I’m finding I don’t really infuse Mg much at all compared to the Alk and Ca, especially since a recent water change.

My current parameters (monitored and maintained using Trident controlled dosing) show Alk 8.75, Ca 448 and Mg 1400. If I start adding Part C at the same rate as Ca, I would think I’m adding more Mg than needed given the tank already has plenty of Mg? BTW the Trident Mg and Ca values were almost identical to an ICP test.
 

Lou Ekus

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Thanks so much @Lou Ekus ! This all makes sense now. I’m going to pick up part C this weekend and make the switch!

One last question: as of right now using the BRS 2 part plus a separate Mg, I’m finding I don’t really infuse Mg much at all compared to the Alk and Ca, especially since a recent water change.

My current parameters (monitored and maintained using Trident controlled dosing) show Alk 8.75, Ca 448 and Mg 1400. If I start adding Part C at the same rate as Ca, I would think I’m adding more Mg than needed given the tank already has plenty of Mg? BTW the Trident Mg and Ca values were almost identical to an ICP test.
While the percentage of the amount of Mg, per unit of volume of powder, is quite high, the actual Mg concentration in the final Balling Part C solution is very low. So this will only make up the difference of what is needed to ionically balance that excess NaCl created, and left over, from your calcium chloride and sodium carbonate addition. No need to worry about getting too much Mg. The number will all work out as long as you don't have Mg coming into the system from some other source.
 
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