Can i dive to get corals?

Mark Gray · Apr 17, 2018

BradB said:
I've made this rant before. $2000 corals cost $2000 because people are willing to spend that much money, and want something other people don't have. It is the same as rare coins, dog breeds, art, etc. It is their money and their right, and I think in the long run it helps our hobby.

But I have a frag tank full of "Japanese" toadstools that I remember everyone drooling over at $200 a tiny button sized piece 10 years ago, along with some colorful montipora, bright green birdnest and lots of other really pretty stuff I enjoy having in my display that I am happy to get $5-$10 a piece for. Surf and turf Acro, one of the most colorful SPS that I originally paid $60 for never sells out anymore at $20. My personal favorite, ALT silver bullet (almost as blue as Oregon tort, much cooler growth form), I am trying to find buyers at $20 or given away free so I can buy more if something happens to my tank. None of it sells well, because everyone is huddled around Jason Fox, not buying, but just complaining they don't have $2000. My goal is to not throw any coral out, pay for the containers I give away, and if I am lucky, earn a few $ towards future purchases.

As for collecting your own, laws vary so you have to do your research. I've never done it, but I believe Mike Paletta and a few other hobbyists have. I think it would be really cool to have a coral I personally collected. But you really are fooling yourself if you think you save money by flying to Southeast Asia instead of a trip to your LFS.

Very true but then again nothing like diving in south Asia my picture is from Thailand. eas out of the hobbit then went diving lol

O'l Salty · Apr 17, 2018

If there were an obscene amount of profit to be made 100's of entrepreneurs would be lining up to take a bite for themselves. This is why capitalism works and prices are derived by supply and demand. If someone can sell a $1,000 frags and get rich doing it I applaud them. No one is forcing anyone to buy them.

PatW · Apr 17, 2018

Ahbaloch said:
Hello reefers, my name is Ali, and as some of you guys know i am new here,

I am beyond amazed how expensive some of these corals are.

I understand that it is supply and demand, so please dont tell me it is supply and demand lol

But my question is where is jason fox, Z’s or WWC are getting these corals from!?

They are getting these from some ocean or somewhere as they cant be man made, right!?

So where are they getting them from!??

Because i refuse to pay $2k for a 1in of some sps or some of these crazy prices.

So i am certified scuba diver so can i go somewhere and get these myself!?

Some people just have toooo much money so they dont mind paying ridiculous amount of money but i dont have $10k laying around for corals

So why dont all of us reefers stop buying, so the prices can go down!?

Lets be respectful and get a discussion going.

I live in Florida. I am an experienced scuba diver and an underwater photographer. In Florida, one can collect fish, inverts and some soft corals. But you cannot collect any hard corals. Even if you could collect hard corals, Florida waters only has two species of acropora, staghorn and elkhorn. Neither species is colorful and the growth forms really would not work in a reef aquarium.

Even if you could collect hard corals in Florida waters, there is a process to collecting. You have to drive to the Florida keys which has the best reefs. You have to stay in a motel, eat at a restaurant. You have to go out on a boat. You have to collect the corals. Then you have to keep them alive on the dive boat. You have to keep them alive during your stay in the keys. You have to keep them alive until you get home and can house them. If you figure the cost of collecting while diving, it would probably be more expensive than most of the coral retailers. Collecting corals is not as easy as one might think.

A problem here is damage to the reef. I see divers landing on the reef as they do uncontrolled descents. I see them kick corals. I see them stand on corals. I see them grab corals. I would think that people collecting corals would damage the reefs. I am not saying that coral collecting cannot be done without significant damage. A careful collector can probably remove a frag from a coral colony without damage. But a careless collector could damage dozens of coral heads on a single dive. It makes sense to preserve the reefs that we have. The reefs are already under stress from climate change and from pollution. It does not make any sense to damage our remaining reefs for a minor economic benefit for a few people. I saw the reefs when they were healthy and pristine back in the seventies. It is rare to find a healthy reef these days. They are precious and vulnerable. We do not need to do anything to accelerate it.

The reefs are a shared resource. When I dive on the reefs, I do not want to kill or remove things. I do not want to kill the large grouper I see for my next meal. The grouper which could be a decade old, is more valuable being seen and enjoyed by hundreds of divers. The same goes for lobster. Divers are thrilled to see lobster. Yes, they are tasty. But if I want to collect lobster which I don't, I would go out to reefs that are not routinely dived on so as to not adversely affect peoples diving experience.

Of course, you could hop on a jet and fly to say Eniwetok and collect corals. But you would have to keep them alive on the way back. Are you going to take a 10 gallon tank through security and stuff it into the over head bin? Then you have to go through customs and unless you have the proper paperwork, they will seize the stuff.

If you look at the sites of coral retailers like Jason Fox, World Wide Corals, and Battlecorals, you will find that they raise all of the corals they sell in aquaculture. They have strains of corals they have developed and put their names on them. Also, most coral frags are not that expensive. You can get quite a few nice acropora corals for under $50 a frag. If you are willing to buy a grab bag of 5 coral frags, you can usually get them for about $25 apiece. These corals are raised in aquaculture. They are corals that already thrive in captivity. So do yourself a favor, just buy corals at your LFS or from one of the highly regarded aquaculture retailers.

dreamsr · Apr 17, 2018

I agree that there should be some sort of price control, whether legal or from within the hobby. There are laws against collecting, but if the market price is high enough, people may calculate their risk of getting caught (low) and whatever fine/lawyers fees they’d have to pay, and decide it’s worth it.

The problem is externalities/tragedy of the commons, which happens often in capitalism, especially without market price controls. As long as the ocean is free and no one owns it, people feel free to take without considering the pressure this brings on the community. If you’re already on a dive vacation, the only added expense is keeping the thing alive until you get home.

Prices should be set to cover the costs of maintaining a tank for years to grow the frag, with modest profit, without gauging the buyer.

dreamsr · Apr 17, 2018

Double post. Sorry!

Fishfinder · Apr 17, 2018

dreamsr said:
The problem is externalities/tragedy of the commons. As long as the ocean is free and no one owns it, people feel free to take without considering the pressure this brings on the community.

The government controls the oceans. They govern what can be taken from it.

And I'm confused why you want to put price caps on a product in a free market system

HereWeGoAgain · Apr 17, 2018

There's a big difference between commodities like milk or gasoline, which we "need", and coral frags, which we "want". No one needs a frag, so it's the perfect thing to let supply and demand economics govern without any intervention by the government. This is America, we are all free to act! If I don't like the price of a $2000 frag, I am perfectly free to go through all the same steps that seller went through, to do it myself for possibly a cheaper price.

User1 · Apr 17, 2018

PatW said:
I live in Florida. I am an experienced scuba diver and an underwater photographer. In Florida, one can collect fish, inverts and some soft corals. But you cannot collect any hard corals. Even if you could collect hard corals, Florida waters only has two species of acropora, staghorn and elkhorn. Neither species is colorful and the growth forms really would not work in a reef aquarium.

Even if you could collect hard corals in Florida waters, there is a process to collecting. You have to drive to the Florida keys which has the best reefs. You have to stay in a motel, eat at a restaurant. You have to go out on a boat. You have to collect the corals. Then you have to keep them alive on the dive boat. You have to keep them alive during your stay in the keys. You have to keep them alive until you get home and can house them. If you figure the cost of collecting while diving, it would probably be more expensive than most of the coral retailers. Collecting corals is not as easy as one might think.

A problem here is damage to the reef. I see divers landing on the reef as they do uncontrolled descents. I see them kick corals. I see them stand on corals. I see them grab corals. I would think that people collecting corals would damage the reefs. I am not saying that coral collecting cannot be done without significant damage. A careful collector can probably remove a frag from a coral colony without damage. But a careless collector could damage dozens of coral heads on a single dive. It makes sense to preserve the reefs that we have. The reefs are already under stress from climate change and from pollution. It does not make any sense to damage our remaining reefs for a minor economic benefit for a few people. I saw the reefs when they were healthy and pristine back in the seventies. It is rare to find a healthy reef these days. They are precious and vulnerable. We do not need to do anything to accelerate it.

The reefs are a shared resource. When I dive on the reefs, I do not want to kill or remove things. I do not want to kill the large grouper I see for my next meal. The grouper which could be a decade old, is more valuable being seen and enjoyed by hundreds of divers. The same goes for lobster. Divers are thrilled to see lobster. Yes, they are tasty. But if I want to collect lobster which I don't, I would go out to reefs that are not routinely dived on so as to not adversely affect peoples diving experience.

Of course, you could hop on a jet and fly to say Eniwetok and collect corals. But you would have to keep them alive on the way back. Are you going to take a 10 gallon tank through security and stuff it into the over head bin? Then you have to go through customs and unless you have the proper paperwork, they will seize the stuff.

If you look at the sites of coral retailers like Jason Fox, World Wide Corals, and Battlecorals, you will find that they raise all of the corals they sell in aquaculture. They have strains of corals they have developed and put their names on them. Also, most coral frags are not that expensive. You can get quite a few nice acropora corals for under $50 a frag. If you are willing to buy a grab bag of 5 coral frags, you can usually get them for about $25 apiece. These corals are raised in aquaculture. They are corals that already thrive in captivity. So do yourself a favor, just buy corals at your LFS or from one of the highly regarded aquaculture retailers.

Interesting post. Playing devils advocate here. If we do not need to do anything to accelerate it then we shouldn't be buying anything collected be it coral, fish, or other. Self sustaining only which means captive bred fish, propagated corals, and cleanup crews.

Also a diver here although in Northern California. You are correct with regards to divers doing damage by poor buoyancy control. It used to be that before you even hit the water if you are with a dive master or guided dive then you do a buoyancy check first. Gone are those days. Pet peeve of mine right there with people picking up or touching the wildlife. In any case this is a hobby that can be self supportive within reason and it falls on the conscious of the hobbyist just how much they want to be.

Personal opinion, again because of being a diver, slapping a fancy name on some cool color morph isn't my stick. They don't look like that 50 feet below the surface and lighting more or less changes how they look in home aquarium. However, what people do with their money isn't of concern to me nor do I judge. I have my own vices that many would think I'm just has whacked when I pay 500 dollars for a bottle of wine. It is what makes the world go around and I'm just along for the ride.

siggy · Apr 17, 2018

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Ahbaloch · Apr 17, 2018

Okay i am back,

Sorry it took me couple days to chime back, weekend duties had be busy.

I like to thank each and everyone who chimmed in.

I know i can built a reef with zoa, i went to my lfs the only one around my area. Was selling zoa for 45$\polyp! And every frag had couple polyps. Meaning a zoa frag for $150ish.

I deff dont want xenia or common leathers.

I want to have mixed reef with sps on the top of my rocks,
And softies in the bottom,

I am talkiing to someone about a zoa pack. Lets see how it goes.

Now i just need some acros soon.

But every time i look at selling sections here i dont see any acro for $25 or $50 they are alll very pricey.

Petsmart dont carry saltwater

Petco dont carry any good collection

Only got 1 lfs.

People on here are selling for hundredsss

So what do i do?

DeniseAndy · Apr 17, 2018

Do you have frag swaps anywhere around you? Other reef keepers? Clubs? Not sure where you are from, so those are always good options in the United States.

nwkermit · Apr 17, 2018

Most of the corals are from overseas, they are collected by local divers, send to distributors, go to your local wholesalers, than your local stores. Each stop there will be lost, each place have to make some money for their overhead, and no one work for free so profit is going to be made. WWC is local to me they hire like 30 people for their operation. Even if each make $20,000 per year, that is $600,000 in salary another few hundred thousand for operation cost. They will need to sell I am guessing $1mil before the owners start making money.

Yes you can dive for coral but are you going to fly to indo, stay for a week, get a collection license, dive for corals for a week, get a export license, pay to have coral fly back on a plane, and might still lose 20-30% of what you bring back?

Only select few individuals are able to command $1000-2000 for their corals. And for that price it will have to be something super nice, people that paid that much are usually other store or upper tier collectors. They paid the ultra high price to be 1st to have it and able to grow out and sell. And as people buy, grow, and frag. Price will come down. Perfect example, WWC looney tunes, it was at one point $1500-2000 for ultra small frag. I personally paid $1400 for 8 polyps. It took a year to grow and the price dropped to $700, than $500, $250, now you can get frag of decent size for $150-200. I paid 7 time what they are worth but I had it 2 year earlier and so frag to paid for it and still made a small profit. Which go straight back to buying new corals.

If you don’t want to paid $1-2k per frag, just wait a few years and price will come down, you will still have nice coral just not right now. Orange passion was $300-400 a frag now $75. Walt Disney was $1000 now $100. HW was $1800 now $300-500.

As for paid it forward, I give away cheaper frag all the time. But if you paid $900 for a frag, and people are willing to paid $300 per frag a year later, there is no reason to give those out for free.

Dr.Me · Apr 17, 2018

:eek::D
Great speech,,, Love it Man....

Ulee · Apr 17, 2018

wow, have yet to seen orange passion come down to $75 , anywhwre.

It helps if u understand the coral market a little bit. And its complicated, so i dont blame anyone. Expect to pay more for corals with two or more colors. Corals in high demand or popularity, are gonna fetch a pretty penny. If u have anything in mind, Best to source out from swap, CL, or friends. Even here at R2R is very reasonable and u can definitely catch a deal.
I was at my LFS today and someone came in looking to add color into their tank, multicolor red trachy for $60 , she thought is was way pricey. I thought it was great value, for size and color pop.

tangtime · Apr 17, 2018

Ulee said:
wow, have yet to seen orange passion come down to $75 , anywhwre.

It helps if u understand the coral market a little bit. And its complicated, so i dont blame anyone. Expect to pay more for corals with two or more colors. Corals in high demand or popularity, are gonna fetch a pretty penny. If u have anything in mind, Best to source out from swap, CL, or friends. Even here at R2R is very reasonable and u can definitely catch a deal.
I was at my LFS today and someone came in looking to add color into their tank, multicolor red trachy for $60 , she thought is was way pricey. I thought it was great value, for size and color pop.

You can find OP for a $100-$150 all day on this site. Every now and then for $75. There’s a guy where I live that sells it on rc for $75.

SPS Frags Port St. Lucie, Florida
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh.../forums/showthread.php?t=2668157&share_type=t

nwkermit · Apr 17, 2018

I have multiple frag for $75 for local. I also had a pack that I put together that had HW, OP, terra red, WD, and beach bum for $500

cracker · Apr 17, 2018

We are losing the original post ! So yes it's possible to dive for corals but all depends on your Local & the laws . I'm with You about the cost of corals. Can't afford them either, well refuse to pay. Where are You ? Maybe there is someone local that can help.

Guttersnipe · Apr 17, 2018

Sarah24! said:
Hello,

So I may get eggs thrown at me for this, but hey some days it’s worth it. There are two sides to this, and I agree with everyone. Everyone so far has very good valid points and are worth while.

Starting with the first one, I hope they make it where we can not cut any coral from the wild anymore. I would support such as the endangered species biologist collecting samples to try and keep them from going extinct. But we have so much damage to the natural reefs now, it’s heart breaking. I would rather support causes to preserve natural reefs, and support farm grown reefs, man made to help replinish what has been lost.

On the same page, charging 2,000 for a frag that’s not even an inch is crazy. Plus, they can not even assure they will survive the fragging. Now, are people good at it, yes but still kills a part of it. I have never had super great luck with those itty bitty things. It totally could be me, just not doing it right.

We all know this hobby is expensive and we signed up for it. But sometimes, it makes me wonder. Unless you have nothing better to do with that kind of money, only a few have that luxury. I just think every one should have a chance at some of those amazing specimens.

Here comes the eggs, I almost wish someone would regulate the cost of live stock. If it’s 2,000 at least make it big enough for us to see it in he tank. Some of these take years and years to grow. This hobby doesn’t go quickly and patience is a virtues, but waiting 5 years to see my 2000 investiment grow 1/4 of an inch is just kinda heart breaking.

Everybody blames supply and demand, which I think is baloney. An example is tires, oil, there is so much of it we don’t even need assistance. But it’s about the dollars and how rich one can be. People who sell these corals at this price are in to make money. This is there job, lively hood etc and I don’t disagree. But it would be nice if they remember that possibly they were not always well off and struggled.

I am no means poor and def not rich, but I do what I can to help others. A few months ago a young couple really wanted this powder brown tang. One of the workers said one price, but it was actually 50 dollars more. They had it all ready to go etc. and short 50. It was clearly the workers fault but he didn’t budge he raised the price. The heart break they had crushed me, and so I paid it for them the whole price.

In return, it made someone happy, they were able to get something some of us covet. In addition it has come back to me, lots of people have paid it forward to me.

My only goals are to preserve the reefs as much as possible and for those who making a living on this, lol don’t forget that some of us, don’t have much money.