Can live sand actually allow you to "skip" the cycling process?

[brandon429]

For new sand we are pre rinsing silt out...not harmful, but it’s to prevent the filth clouding initially

that new sand won’t have detritus that causes mini cycles

but old sand is packed full of both components typically. We rinse old sand before combining tanks so that no waste is moved to new glass house. Once we move the old rocks over, the skip cycle happens due to the rocks primarily and the sand secondarily, that’s assumed based on the number of times in the sand rinse thread where we removed all sand from the new tank and the rocks had to carry the full bioload the sand used to share.

nobody has bothered to simply and clearly test the sand alone to see if it helps at all.

in summary, skip cycling runs our whole hobby, it happens daily.

when people move reefs from one room to another they skip cycle

when they move fifty thousand in live animals to a reef convention in a single large reef, they skip cycle. They then take unsold animals back home and skip cycle again

both the sand rinse thread and the microbiology of reef tank cycling are skip cycle logs, hundreds of jobs on file. All links are tank work to inspect. when we combine tanks or upgrade them, we clean them before reassembly and the act of cleaning causes the skipped cycle, by preventing detritus from overcoming bacteria already present.

caribsea sand has no live wiggling animals in it, so pre rinsing is ok. Regarding bacteria on sand, anyone who takes time to read the logged work can see sandbed bacteria only matter in a system where zero live rock is used...nobody has ever bothered to test if pre rinsing deactivates sand, we don’t even know if it’s active but I’ll vote it is. Someone do a test already

 

[duberii]

Me personally I always purchase the live sand. I use Caribsea live sand. I get it from amazon for the same price as dead sand.
I setup a 220 gallon tank and I was able to add 4 very large tangs and two clowns from day 1.
With no cycle. I have a seneye and my ammonia was Undetectable. I also used fritz turbo start.

Do you mind if I PM you to answer a few questions?

 

[Amado]

If live rock can so can live sand. Given the amount of surface area provided by sand it should even be more efficient. The only problem is that I have never seen any live sand for sale commercially. The stuff can't be sold in closed bags that have been sitting in a warehouse/shop for who knows how long (the numbers and diversity of living bacteria can no longer be there). Would any of us call rock alive if it had been treated that way? The only way to get real live sand is get it directly out of the ocean or from a (healthy) running system with a sandbed.

The bacteria is dormant and it becomes alive when it is mixed with saltwater.

 

[Amado]

Do you mind if I PM you to answer a few questions?

Sure go ahead

 

[brandon429]

Amado

have you tested the sand to discern activity status

if not, do you know of any threads doing so we can read

 

[andrewey]

From my limited testing I've done, the answer is no. I have no idea how much bacteria is still present in the samples or their activity (and the heterogeneity of "live sand" is probably too great to draw meaningful conclusions), but the samples I tested were unable to process any meaningful amounts of ammonia in 24 hours.

 

[brandon429]

We should email caribsea and ask if they tested it. I wonder if they’re printing total lies, with no research or documentation before printing labels stating bac are active

surely they, or BRS has bothered to compare live sand tests with bottle bac tests, which already show the bacteria active.



curious
was this assessment like cycling where no 10 people sampled agree on an ammonia level?

ie, did you use seneye to measure nonperformance? We have lots of non seneye measures telling us that cycles aren’t performing too

but no seneye measures have ever said that...
how we measure matters big time.

 

[brandon429]

Somebody test it here live.

two tests must occur simult, cuz we’re not getting seneye clarity thats for sure.

bucket one is all live rocks, known ability to oxidize. The same tester is used on this bucket to prove the tester itself works, and in that calibration we can trust non seneye to measure sand. Post pics of this bucket actually working correctly, alongside bucket 2 which has the suspected sand in it.

two buckets, bag of sand, an api kit, ten pounds of live rock, a few drops of ammonia per bucket and we make headway for science.

 

[andrewey]

Testing was performed with a Hach Colorimeter.

 

[brandon429]

Rerun it here using the live rock sides, I didn’t even know H had a digital ammonia tester that will be great to see

knowing that, a third bucket is needed, one that sat for a week or so activating to assess any delayed starts.

of all the strains they could pack in a bag that would work, such as bio spira, they choose to add only non working ones or no bac at all?

any brand of bottle bac lets people fish in cycle, even tetra from wal mart which is dual freshwater and saltwater from same strain, but caribsea just made up a false label and gives no active bac... They spent money sterilizing water sand so it was devoid of ability

I’m surprised, can’t wait to see it tested.

 

[andrewey]

@brandon429 , I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I'm not going to be running this test in the forseaable future. I'm quite busy with other projects and to be perfectly honest, the question simply doesn't interest me. If you'd like to repeat the test yourself, the model is the DR890 (although other models like the DR900 are available) using the Salicylate Method.

 

[brandon429]

no need to other than curiosity, I have no use for an ammonia tester agreed we'll have to wait till the right motivation is in place
D will have to test it.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Well, @brandon429 would argue that it is because you didn't wash the sand beforehand. By washing out all the dead stuff and silt, you get rid of a lot of the organics that would cause a cycle. Brandon correct me if I'm wrong.

In the old days (70's), we washed and sterilized everything before using it. We used big bio-filters with compartments 1/2 the size of the display tank. Then seeded the filter beds with a bit of filter bed from an old tank. As everything in the tank was clean there was no or very little remineralization capacity from the beginning but we waited till the brown stuff started to disappear and be replaced by green stuff before adding the first fish. This took +- a month. Then we introduced a strong Dyscallus to seed the water with its facies and the waste of food. We had no means for measuring ammonia or nitrate levels. I had the pleasure to watch spawning and housekeeping Dyscallus for many years.

Nitrate is the endproduct of the aerobic remineralization process which also completes the carbon cycle producing CO2 needed for photosynthesis and autotrophic nitrification, providing the energy to fix the carbon again, completing the carbon cycle. In a clean tank, energy is provided by the light source and meanly photo-autotrophs will deliver the first bio-load to start it all up. They will use and deplete what is available in the fresh-made seawater. Then heterotrophs will make use of the dying cells producing ammonia and phosphate, starting up the nitrogen cycle from ammonia. Part of the produced nitrate is used for growth, a part is transformed into N2 by wich the nitrogen cycle is closed. In a nitrogen-limited environment, nitrogen is then reintroduced in the chain by nitrogen-fixation. It takes +- a month to complete the first nitrogen cycle. A new tank containing bio-waste from the beginning also will take a few weeks for the first cycles to be completed because installing a reliable carrying capacity based on an autotrophic ammonia reduction rate always must follow the standard installation processes taking the time needed.

In a new propper inoculated biofilter fed with bio-waste first the ammonia level will increase, then nitrite will be produced lowering the ammonia level. As long ammonia is dominant nitrite will rise because nitrite oxidizers are ammonia sensitive. Starting up one may not feed the filter every day because also too high nitrite levels may inhibit nitrafication. Not a fine environment. After +- 2 weeks the nitrite level will be high but decreasing and ammonia low enough. Nitrate is produced. Then it goes fast and within a week most nitrite and ammonia will be gone, the moment to reintroduce more bio-waste. The first cycle is completed. The following cycles will be a lot faster. The bio-filter is cycled when the intended amount of TOC can be remineralized and all ammonia and nitrite is removed. A propper cycled nitrifying biofilter will export +- 15% of the nitrogen processed.

Cycling a tank is about installing the carrying capacity needed but also includes the remineralization capacity. For which organics are needed. These days a new tank must contain "live" rock which may leak organics for months. What is the advantage of "live" products if it is the intension to wash the "live" out?

Cycling the tank with or without a skimmer?

 

[Amado]

Amado

have you tested the sand to discern activity status

if not, do you know of any threads doing so we can read

I don’t understand why people make things so complicated.
If you want live sand then buy live sand.
If you don’t want live sand then buy dry sand.
They both cost the same so it’s up to you.
The same people use to argue if you could cycle a tank with just using bottle bacteria.
I have had good Expirience using caribsea products. I am also sure they already did all the testing you need. If you don’t believe or can prove them wrong then you can bring a class action lawsuit.

 

[duberii]

In the old days (70's), we washed and sterilized everything before using it. We used big bio-filters with compartments 1/2 the size of the display tank. Then seeded the filter beds with a bit of filter bed from an old tank. As everything in the tank was clean there was no or very little remineralization capacity from the beginning but we waited till the brown stuff started to disappear and be replaced by green stuff before adding the first fish. This took +- a month. Then we introduced a strong Dyscallus to seed the water with its facies and the waste of food. We had no means for measuring ammonia or nitrate levels. I had the pleasure to watch spawning and housekeeping Dyscallus for many years.

Nitrate is the endproduct of the aerobic remineralization process which also completes the carbon cycle producing CO2 needed for photosynthesis and autotrophic nitrification, providing the energy to fix the carbon again, completing the carbon cycle. In a clean tank, energy is provided by the light source and meanly photo-autotrophs will deliver the first bio-load to start it all up. They will use and deplete what is available in the fresh-made seawater. Then heterotrophs will make use of the dying cells producing ammonia and phosphate, starting up the nitrogen cycle from ammonia. Part of the produced nitrate is used for growth, a part is transformed into N2 by wich the nitrogen cycle is closed. In a nitrogen-limited environment, nitrogen is then reintroduced in the chain by nitrogen-fixation. It takes +- a month to complete the first nitrogen cycle. A new tank containing bio-waste from the beginning also will take a few weeks for the first cycles to be completed because installing a reliable carrying capacity based on an autotrophic ammonia reduction rate always must follow the standard installation processes taking the time needed.

In a new propper inoculated biofilter fed with bio-waste first the ammonia level will increase, then nitrite will be produced lowering the ammonia level. As long ammonia is dominant nitrite will rise because nitrite oxidizers are ammonia sensitive. Starting up one may not feed the filter every day because also too high nitrite levels may inhibit nitrafication. Not a fine environment. After +- 2 weeks the nitrite level will be high but decreasing and ammonia low enough. Nitrate is produced. Then it goes fast and within a week most nitrite and ammonia will be gone, the moment to reintroduce more bio-waste. The first cycle is completed. The following cycles will be a lot faster. The bio-filter is cycled when the intended amount of TOC can be remineralized and all ammonia and nitrite is removed. A propper cycled nitrifying biofilter will export +- 15% of the nitrogen processed.

Cycling a tank is about installing the carrying capacity needed but also includes the remineralization capacity. For which organics are needed. These days a new tank must contain "live" rock which may leak organics for months. What is the advantage of "live" products if it is the intension to wash the "live" out?

Cycling the tank with or without a skimmer?

Well washing the sand won't get rid of the bacteria- if it was, washing your hands would be way more effective without soap. It will, however, wash away dead bacteria that could cause a nutrient overload to a new tank (from my own speculation) and also gets rid of any silt that would cloud the water when the sand is added to the tank.

 

[brandon429]

not complicated Amado was just curious to get an answer/see a test. its something I remember forums debating about for 20 yrs. in all that time, all those posts for pages, we can't locate a test thread there's always a reason why it simply can't be verified. Mine is I dont care to verify it lol but if someone else would I would bring popcorn to the thread. and I would place a small wager that the sand is active as long as the test params are clear and we have a working blank to proof the tester. transporting bacteria adapted to water in water should be a really simple process, like bottled bac.

BRS could test this, they'd get seventy million views. they have seneyes

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Well washing the sand won't get rid of the bacteria- if it was, washing your hands would be way more effective without soap. It will, however, wash away dead bacteria that could cause a nutrient overload to a new tank (from my own speculation) and also gets rid of any silt that would cloud the water when the sand is added to the tank.

Must I conclude it is possible to wash filter sand and divide the living from the dead this way? If the sand is (was) "alive" I would think the living are using the dead and they would be all over the biowaste in an attempt for survival How the bio-waste is removed without the "live" attached to it? Any idea what will happen the moment you open a bag of so-called "live" sand and leave it in contact with free air or oxygenated water? I have no doubt if the sand was full of life when bagged the sand will soon turn into a very active medium but will the "live" having a party be the "live" so much money was paid for?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A new set up aquarium is always overloaded if bioload is added, that is the reason why a new setup has to be conditioned, to be able to support the intended bio-load without getting overloaded when the habitants are introduced. For example to introduce a school of Anthias or a big fish even an established and propper cycled tank must be conditioned and prepared for the future bio-load. Conditioning a tank is not the same as cycling a tank.

 

[duberii]

A new set up aquarium is always overloaded if bioload is added, that is the reason why a new setup has to be conditioned, to be able to support the intended bio-load without getting overloaded when the habitants are introduced. For example to introduce a school of Anthias or a big fish even an established and propper cycled tank must be conditioned and prepared for the future bio-load. Conditioning a tank is not the same as cycling a tank.

How do you suggest conditioning?

 

[brandon429]

here's how bioload capacity works, after cycle completes:

surfaces in the tank that function as filters do not leave a cycle with room unused by bacteria. They're full, its how we close out and end a cycle, by filling interstices.

Rocks do not have room to take on more bacteria after cycling, but there's a neat hidden years-long process that actually will afford some extra boost, and its by creating extra ***surface area room** not by adding bac into spaces avail, there are no available spaces post cycle.

Stacking bacteria on top of bacteria does NOT add surface area, it reduces it.

so this means post cycle, your rocks can carry as much fish as they'll carry for the next few years even if you added them all at once, no ramp up. Over time, as coralline grows, as vermitid spikes increase surface area, you get room for more bac and water contact increases so filtration efficiency increases, if you've kept surfaces clean. do not think that your rocks infinitely stack up bacteria after a cycle, surface area mechanics doesnt work that way or we couldnt get away with ripping out 10 year old sandbeds, in 20K$ sps reefs, essentially doubling the bioload presentation to the rocks who got no ramp up period when we removed the sandbed.

we get away with that practice because in all reefs using rocks and sand, the surface area is so massive beyond whats needed, ripping half of it out doesnt matter, the leftover half could be reduced in half again, and it would still carry the same fish bioload.

good luck finding any of that in links heh

better than finding it in links=seeing it applied for five years in one thread where about half a million bucks of reef tanks keep showing the same phenomena, over and over.


if you truly consider the details, sandbed removal microbiology is an amazing way to measure actual cycle biology even though the tank is matured. anytime you put a massive loading on rocks that had no time to 'build up' or condition, you are studying how things worked on day 31 of your cycle.