Cannot keep NO3

[HouseofStark]

Looking for some advise, not sure where to go. Recently, back in Feb I purchased a batch of zoa frags, within 1-2 days they closed and within a week they were bare frag plugs. This past weekend, I tried a 2nd round, and its looking like same thing will happen. They came to me wide open looking good and within 1 day closed and looking like they are going to melt 2-3 days in. After the first round melted, I sent in an ICP test which came back 100% in majors and 85% in minor elements. No real answers or flags there. The only thing I do know, is that my No3 is always testing zero, which I know it not good and could allow dinos to fill the void. I have been dosing Neonitro, but as soon as I dose it, proof its gone. PO4 is around.05-.1 I do have a bubble algae outbreak that I have 4-5 pitho crabs and a foxface added to attack. That along with some manual removal, a fuge, I run 12hrs a day, and I do heavily strain my frozen PE mysis. Ive been reading Randys cheaper option NO3 dosing, vs using NeoNitro. Whats your guys thoughts on dosing? Should I feed heavier and not strain? Should I start dosing ammonia bicarbonate, reading randy and miami reefs post. I assume I have nitrate, but its being consumed by bubble algae and or other organisms? Stumped why my zoas are closing and melting within 2-3 days, super frustrating. I do have some zoas that have been with me a long time and they seem to be doing ok. I assume there is sometype of shock, differnce in systems that are causing the melt.

Heavily stocked mix reef 80 Fiji Cube with 12hr fuge, 24h skimmer

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

IMO Since you have both a bubble algae problem and a fuge with more algae, I would not rely on the test kits for accuracy. Like you said you add nitrate and its gone right away, the algae is consuming it.

If there is enough nutrients to for both bubble algae and a fuge, I think the zoa's would be fine. To me personally, nitrate is not the answer for why your zoa's are melting

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Many of us dose N daily. I dose ammonium bicarbonate.

You can also make 5 or 10 ppm additions of sodium or calcium nitrate that will not disappear overnight.

 

[HouseofStark]

With what Mr Mojo said, do you suggest still dosing to try to keep dinos at bay?

 

[sgdnycct]

If you have a fuge and macro AND bubble algae I’d work on getting the bubble algae under control first. Then cut back on the macro photoperiod.

Between the macro, bubble algae, and across your N intake is probably high. Off the bat I’d say cut back on macro photo period to allow more N free for corals. But if you do that with a bubble algae problem it may feed the bubble algae.

 

[rayadog]

When you say poof, do you mean like next day? It took me a week or so, without changing the dose much, to see a stable level.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With what Mr Mojo said, do you suggest still dosing to try to keep dinos at bay?

Yes. Or reducing the refugium light time or intensity.

But if you want it to export P and maintain N, dosing is the way.

 

[mcarroll]

Heavily stocked mix reef 80 Fiji Cube with 12hr fuge, 24h skimmer

Looking for some advise, not sure where to go. Recently, back in Feb I purchased a batch of zoa frags, within 1-2 days they closed and within a week they were bare frag plugs.

Please detail your cleanup crew.

This past weekend, I tried a 2nd round, and its looking like same thing will happen. They came to me wide open looking good and within 1 day closed and looking like they are going to melt 2-3 days in.

Assuming no pests or hungry cleanup crew...

After the first round melted, I sent in an ICP test which came back 100% in majors and 85% in minor elements. No real answers or flags there. The only thing I do know, is that my No3 is always testing zero, which I know it not good and could allow dinos to fill the void. I have been dosing Neonitro, but as soon as I dose it, proof its gone. PO4 is around.05-.1

Notably your system is keeping NO3 at zero, yet PO4 has only built up to 0.05-ish. Seems like inputs of N and P are both low....as are current levels.

I do have a bubble algae outbreak that I have 4-5 pitho crabs and a foxface added to attack. That along with some manual removal, a fuge, I run 12hrs a day, and I do heavily strain my frozen PE mysis.

Available open rock space (and lack of competition to fill it) is what causes algae.

The refugium is not a tool vs algae, it's a tool vs nutrients.

Algae don't care as much about nutrient levels as corals do – therefor your anti-nutrient tool will work MUCH more effectively against corals than algae. I'm pretty sure that's not your goal.

Straining your food is make-work...popular but time consuming and (IMO) silly, especially when your system is lacking nutrients.

Ive been reading Randys cheaper option NO3 dosing, vs using NeoNitro. Whats your guys thoughts on dosing?

"Any port in a storm."

There's nothing wrong with what you're using, you just need a proper method of using it. (If you're following instructions on the bottle, they are for nutrient reduction!)

This goes for N & P...

Dose phosphates up to ≥0.10 ppm. Test after .5-1 hours to see if anything is still left. If needed, re-dose to 0.10 ppm. Wait an hour and test again. Re-dose if needed. Rinse. Repeat. ...until you have ≥0.10 ppm PO4.

Watch NO3 closely and assure it stays ≥ 5 ppm as well.

I assume I have nitrate, but its being consumed by bubble algae and or other organisms?

Yes.

How else are you cleaning/filtering the water?

Depending on your answer, I would strongly consider decomissioning the refugium, at least the algae section that is competing with your corals. Just doesn't make sense in reality.

Stumped why my zoas are closing and melting within 2-3 days, super frustrating. I do have some zoas that have been with me a long time and they seem to be doing ok. I assume there is sometype of shock, differnce in systems that are causing the melt.

Look at your flow as well....could be the other zoas are in a better flow spot. Chances are the spots don't get the same light either....so don't assume too much is the same.

IMO you have enough to start with, but there are some additional unanswered questions that might reveal more.

FYI, zoanthids are probably the moodiest coral of all. Don't be sad if the reason for this ends up being "just because".

 

[HouseofStark]

@mcarroll
Cleanup crew: hermit and pitho crabs, trocus, turbo, astraea and nassiarius snails; cleaner, fire and peperment shrimp, 2 strawberry conchs; 3 urchins and a sand goby to stirr.

Dont believe its a livestock issue they are on a rack 2" off sand bed, in the back corner of tank, within the first day of being in tank they start to resess. Would think the "older zoas" I have on sand bed would be attcked also. Just seems to be any new additions, melt fast.

The bubble agale came over on my tank reboot. I had it in this tank before....i pulled everything, new sand and rock work....but I did see some coral pieces had bubble on it after reboot and it just has increased....hence the addition to pithos and foxface.

Sump was untouched during reboot, thats why fuge exsist; I think I will just dial back the photo period. My thought was to out compete the bubbles in the tank with the fuge.

Im sure when I dial back my fuge time, my PO4 wil increase fast. Its heavily stock...so your syaing to let my po4 rise to .10 and see if I get some NO3 to read? With the tank stocked so heavy, my po4 can hit .2-.3 very easly

Filtering; socks; into to fuge with cheato, skimmer running 24/7; through some live rock and back out to tank.

Understand it could be just because...only reason I question is this tank grew them fine, before tank reboot. But maybe just is what it is.

 

[HouseofStark]

When you say poof, do you mean like next day? It took me a week or so, without changing the dose much, to see a stable level.

Yes I can dose NeoNitro for 2-3 days and it never moves off zero.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes I can dose NeoNitro for 2-3 days and it never moves off zero.

Dose more. :)

 

[mcarroll]

Sump was untouched during reboot, thats why fuge exsist; I think I will just dial back the photo period. My thought was to out compete the bubbles in the tank with the fuge.

Understandable because it's a common thought. Knowing about the coral angle of that (ie corals will fall victim first) just isn't as common.

Algae and coral are more or less nemesis vying for the same habitat in nature and they fight/compete by all means including allelopathy.

Algae *is common* on wild reefs, but only in tiny amounts (eg) between corals – not mature stands of algae.

For all the "logic" about using a refugium to reduce nutrients, growing algae in proximity to corals really doesn't make a lot of sense from the coral's angle. (I think a macro refugium fits better in the context of a fish-only tank.)

Refugiums are better thought of (IMO) as being part of the reef's nutrient cycling system vs using it to target dissolved nutrients. So turn off the light and let the algae go by the wayside – instead grow worms, snails, pods and every other kind of detritivore that will sustain its own population in there. ipsf.com is a good resource if you need one.

Im sure when I dial back my fuge time, my PO4 wil increase fast. Its heavily stock...so your syaing to let my po4 rise to .10 and see if I get some NO3 to read? With the tank stocked so heavy, my po4 can hit .2-.3 very easly

We will see. The target was actually ≥ 0.10, so there's nothing wrong if it rises to 0.2 or 0.3. And sooner is better than later IF this turns out to be the cause. (In fact, if you don't see a rise within 24 hours for some reason I would go ahead and dose it up to the minimum target.)

Filtering; socks; into to fuge with cheato, skimmer running 24/7; through some live rock and back out to tank.

I would consider eliminating the filter socks and even the extra rock rubble. These things are all useful in other kinds of tanks, but in a reef tank they generally represent competition for your corals and main reef.

I know this will sound funny given the hobby's attitude toward ammonia, but having excess rock that isn't part of your reef actually put excess demand on the already-scanty ammonia supply. It can even put pressure on the nitrate supply by denitrification.

Any ammonia processed in that chamber would be "better spent" on the organisms living in the display on the main rock structure, including your corals. Some reef critters are not as well suited to using oxidized or complexed N (eg NO3, amino acids, urea), they really prefer or need ammonia. (Corals and pest algae seem more adaptable, so we're thinking about many of those lesser reef critters that fall "in between" bacteria and corals.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I believe this is why Randy doses ammonia and not (eg) nitrates. Corals are fine either way IMO, but many other beneficial critters may end up benefiting from the difference. At least it is probable...definitely a worthy experiment.

 

[HouseofStark]

This morning I was thinking. Maybe it is a livestock issue. I kinda forgot I added a valentini puffer when I rebooted the tank. I didnt suspect him, because I do have other zoas that are fine in the tank and Ive never seen him pick at them. The new zoa frags additions are up on a rack, but this morning I seen him laying on the new frags. I remembered he did the same to the last rack of new zoas. I started to wonder...has he been eating/laying on them at night. SoI put one of frags that still had polyps left into a mushroom case and will see if they open back up and or survive. The others at this point I believe are goners.

 

[HouseofStark]

@Randy Holmes-Farley So reading through the 80 plus pages on ammonium bicarbonate. What what Ive taken away is, I can use NeoNitro to bump up my No3 to say 5-10, Then using your reciepe on a Neptuen DOS to add the solution into the sump, to maintain NO3.

My system ~80gal volume system

mix up.....20 grams of ammonium bicarbonate (about 4 and 3/4 teaspoons) in 1 L RO/DI water (stock solution)

Dose 2.3 mL of stock solution to a 100 L (26 gallon) aquarium. You may need to add this amount multiply times per day to dose enough. That would be 7mls of solution in my system...would add 0.1 mg/L ammonia or 0.36 ppm nitrate to the system.

Is it a matter of testing to fine tune the amount needed per day to target that 5-10 range?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use food grade sodium nitrate instead of neonitro since it is less expensive, can be made any concentration that is convenient for dosing, and has a purity assurance the hobby product lacks. But yes, it is good for sudden bumps up.

Yes, the daily dose needed to maintain your target is best determined by trial and error adjusting.

 

[HouseofStark]

I use food grade sodium nitrate instead of neonitro since it is less expensive, can be made any concentration that is convenient for dosing, and has a purity assurance the hobby product lacks. But yes, it is good for sudden bumps up.

Yes, the daily dose needed to maintain your target is best determined by trial and error adjusting.

Looks like only the 400g is available....no more 50g via amazon?

Sodium Nitrate ⊘ Non-GMO Gluten-Free Vegan OU Kosher Certified - 400g/14oz​

Well never mind, it looks like I need 137g of NaNO3 for a liter of solution.....

Im confused on the DIY sodium nitrate solution mixing......Miami has listed 137g into one L, then Im seeing other people post...50g per one L. Whats the mixing instructions and or dosing instructions should follow for the DIY nirate

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The amount of water you dissolve either sodium nitrate or ammonium bicarbonate into is not important as long as it dissolves, and you know how the potency changes with dilution.