Can't Increase Nitrate & Phosphate

[saltygram]

I really need help raising Nitrates and Phosphates in my reef tank.

Profile:
230 gallon system
Filled and cycled during the month of August.
Filter socks, refugium w/ sea lettuce, RO 150int skimmer, UV
Fish - Purple and sailfin tang, 5 chromis, file fish, moorish idol, 2 clarkie clowns
Corals - some initial lps (frog spawn, torch, hammer), Softies (toad stool, Xenias, zoes), SPS (plating and encrusting monti)

Started noticing the corals, who never really grew much, started showing signs of going backwards around mid November. About that same time my PO4/NO3 started to bottom out. Read the articles on R2R and started dosing Neophos first, followed by Ammonia. (Ammonium Bicarbonate) later as shown in the chart attached. When I wasn't getting any movement I assumed my rocks were absorbing the PO4 so I started ramping up as suggested by Miami Reef in some of the articles. I also reduced my fuge lights from 12 to 8 hours a night. Also have a major dino outbreak do to the low nutrients.

Do I continue ramping things up or will I potentially cause harm to the fish?

My corals are almost all gone already, but I need to turn this ship around so I can get back on track. I'm trying to follow the recipes but don't seem to be gaining any headway.

We do plan to add more fish to also help with the numbers.

Help please...

 

[ShakeyGizzard]

My fuge ran my nutrients down along with my skimmer and roller filter. I stopped running my fuge (kato) and only ran the skimmer for 4 hours a day. Since you use filter socks leaving them in longer will raise the nutrient level plus feeding more or more of often.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Neophos is pretty weak. I’d dose more of each.

 

[EnterName]

Randy beat me to it (again) :D

If you tell us how you mixed the ammonium bicarbonate solution (did you use Randy's recipe?), I can calculate how much you can safely add to your tank at once without causing any harm. If you need to add more, you will have to spread the dose throughout the day.

For dosing phosphate you can also switch to a DIY solution if neophos doesn't cut it.

 

[saltygram]

Randy beat me to it (again) :D

If you tell us how you mixed the ammonium bicarbonate solution (did you use Randy's recipe?), I can calculate how much you can safely add to your tank at once without causing any harm. If you need to add more, you will have to spread the dose throughout the day.

For dosing phosphate you can also switch to a DIY solution if neophos doesn't cut it.

Yes I used Randy's recipe of 4.75 teaspoons per Liter for the ammonia bicarbonate. I have phosphate on order to switch to the DIY version of that.

Calculations on how much I can safely add of each would be much appreciated.

I'm adding Neophos to a rate of .15ppm according to the bottle.

 

[saltygram]

Neophos is pretty weak. I’d dose more of each.

Dosing to a rate of .15ppm according to their bottle. Higher yet??

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dosing to a rate of .15ppm according to their bottle. Higher yet??

Does that mean you dosed 0.15 ppm in one shot, or are slowly dosing toward that target?

I dosed 0.1 ppm at once when I was in a similar situation.

 

[BubbleAlgaeFarmer]

More fish?

 

[Reefer Matt]

A high protein flake fish food might do it if currently feeding frozen.

 

[fandaga]

I had the same problem last year. I separately dosed sodium phosphate and ammonium chloride. I would test weekly and had close to 0 phosphate for a long time until one day the phosphates were over 0.5. Now I have the opposite problem with not being able to get the phosphates below 0.2 even with running GFO. Nitrates still need to be dosed daily.

On my new tank with live rock, phosphates and nitrates started off relatively high.

Anyways, I would just make sure to test a lot until your rock and substrate finally is saturated. Then definitely back off on the phosphate dosing. Otherwise, you’ll probably have algae issues like I went through after the phosphates were too high.

 

[saltygram]

Does that mean you dosed 0.15 ppm in one shot, or are slowly dosing toward that target?

I dosed 0.1 ppm at once when I was in a similar situation.

I dosed the last two days at that rate. Their calculation.... 230 x .15 x 3.785 = 130ml Neophos. I first raised to .10 level. After 2 days with no change I increased the last 2 days to the .15 level. I added the 130 over about 3 hours.

 

[saltygram]

More fish?

Working on that also.

 

[saltygram]

A high protein flake fish food might do it if currently feeding frozen.

Feeding frozen, pellets and reef jerky.

 

[EnterName]

Yes I used Randy's recipe of 4.75 teaspoons per Liter for the ammonia bicarbonate. I have phosphate on order to switch to the DIY version of that.

Calculations on how much I can safely add of each would be much appreciated.

I'm adding Neophos to a rate of .15ppm according to the bottle.

4.75 teaspoons are about 20g ammonium bicarbonate according to the DIY guide, so I will base my calculations on that:

20g NH₄HCO₃ are approx. 4560mg NH₄

20g / 79.06g/mol NH₄HCO₃ ≈ 0.253mol NH₄HCO₃ = 0.253mol NH₄
0.253mol NH₄ ⋅ 18.04g/mol NH₄ ≈ 4.56g NH₄ = 4560mg NH₄

So you have a 4560mg/L NH₄ stock solution. Randy suggests that adding 0.1mg/L is safe, so in your 230gal (≈ 871L) tank you can add 87.1mg at once:

0.1mg/L ⋅ 871L = 87.1mg

This is equivalent to 19mL of your stock solution:

87.1mg / 4560mg/L ≈ 0.019L = 19mL

You are already adding 60mL. This is 0.3mg/L NH₄, which could be a bit high to add at once. Instead you could start by adding 19mL every 6 hours. This would end up being 76mL a day or 0.4mg/L NH₄. If that isn't enough, reduce the interval. This way you will never add more than 0.1mg/L at once but still increase the overall added amount of ammonia. It might be possible to add more than 0.1mg/L at once, but I think letting a dosing pump reduce the interval instead is the safer bet for now.

Here is a small overview of how much ammonia/nitrate you are effectively dosing when using a 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 hour interval:

• 19mL every 6 hours: 76mL/d → 0.4mg/L NH₄ ≈ 1.38mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 5 hours: 91.2mL/d → 0.42mg/L NH₄ ≈ 1.44mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 4 hours: 114mL/d → 0.52mg/L NH₄ ≈ 1.79mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 3 hours: 152mL/d → 0.69mg/L NH₄ ≈ 2.37mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 2 hours: 228mL/d → 1.04mg/L NH₄ ≈ 3.58mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 1 hours: 456mL/d → 2.08mg/L NH₄ ≈ 7.15mg/L NO₃

Now Randy can (rightfully) laugh at me again for using too many decimal places as usual :D
And yes, I actually invested the time to type all that, no AI has been used.

 

[saltygram]

4.75 teaspoons are about 20g ammonium bicarbonate according to the DIY guide, so I will base my calculations on that:

20g NH₄HCO₃ are approx. 4560mg NH₄

20g / 79.06g/mol NH₄HCO₃ ≈ 0.253mol NH₄HCO₃ = 0.253mol NH₄
0.253mol NH₄ ⋅ 18.04g/mol NH₄ ≈ 4.56g NH₄ = 4560mg NH₄

So you have a 4560mg/L NH₄ stock solution. Randy suggests that adding 0.1mg/L is safe, so in your 230gal (≈ 871L) tank you can add 87.1mg at once:

0.1mg/L ⋅ 871L = 87.1mg

This is equivalent to 19mL of your stock solution:

87.1mg / 4560mg/L ≈ 0.019L = 19mL

You are already adding 60mL. This is 0.3mg/L NH₄, which could be a bit high to add at once. Instead you could start by adding 19mL every 6 hours. This would end up being 76mL a day or 0.4mg/L NH₄. If that isn't enough, reduce the interval. This way you will never add more than 0.1mg/L at once but still increase the overall added amount of ammonia. It might be possible to add more than 0.1mg/L at once, but I think letting a dosing pump reduce the interval instead is the safer bet for now.

Here is a small overview of how much ammonia/nitrate you are effectively dosing when using a 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 hour interval:

• 19mL every 6 hours: 76mL/d → 0.4mg/L NH₄ ≈ 1.38mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 5 hours: 91.2mL/d → 0.42mg/L NH₄ ≈ 1.44mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 4 hours: 114mL/d → 0.52mg/L NH₄ ≈ 1.79mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 3 hours: 152mL/d → 0.69mg/L NH₄ ≈ 2.37mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 2 hours: 228mL/d → 1.04mg/L NH₄ ≈ 3.58mg/L NO₃
• 19mL every 1 hours: 456mL/d → 2.08mg/L NH₄ ≈ 7.15mg/L NO₃

Now Randy can (rightfully) laugh at me again for using too many decimal places as usual :D
And yes, I actually invested the time to type all that, no AI has been used.

Wow....is all I can say. Thanks so much for providing this. I'll report back.

 

[saltygram]

Finally some success today!

Nitrates 5.1
Phosphates 0.06

Now hoping that continues.