I hear you. I think it is the KISS method in action. Keep it simple stupid. Small water volumes down scare me my fist serious reef tank was a 15 gallon with a 250 watt MH over it. I grew a T. giga (this was when you could still get them) from maybe 3 inches across to 12 inches across in a 15. I barely tested my water and if I did I would just test calcium and throw some kent turbo calcium in there. I may have also been running a Kalk stirrer so that could have helped. But that tank was so much less complex than my current tank and things would grow. But I also did set that tank up with actual live rock.... (brining it all back). There are some pictures of that tank over in by build thread.
Can't keep acros, what am I doing wrong?
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I hear you. I think it is the KISS method in action. Keep it simple stupid. Small water volumes down scare me my fist serious reef tank was a 15 gallon with a 250 watt MH over it. I grew a T. giga (this was when you could still get them) from maybe 3 inches across to 12 inches across in a 15. I barely tested my water and if I did I would just test calcium and throw some kent turbo calcium in there. I may have also been running a Kalk stirrer so that could have helped. But that tank was so much less complex than my current tank and things would grow. But I also did set that tank up with actual live rock.... (brining it all back). There are some pictures of that tank over in by build thread.
But this brings me back to my theory. It isn't the biodiveristy matters. What does a SPS care if there is a sponge of a worm or a mini star in the tank. All the SPS cares about is food, light, and minerals (to simplify). What if a mature tank is actually a tank in which the fight to colonize every inch of rock but the micro fauna has come of a stale mate. All of the population of happy and co existing. In a tank that is full of available surface, I would think it is possible for all of these other organisms to be fighting it out of their own homestead. Our the sensitive SPS just ending up as the collateral damage in this battle. It just a thought but it does seem reasonable, given my own experiences and the experiences that many many other people have been having lately.
XNavyDiver
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1. I haven't the foggiest.
2. One would think, but if that were solely the case, then acros would have been thriving in my tank months ago.
3. Interesting way of thinking of it. Is that another way of expressing balance or equilibrium? "With balance comes stability..."
Thank you for your thoughts, as I've stated before, I'm defiantly no expert. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this acro thing. I'm still struggling to keep them in my tank (it's really the only reason I started this tank). I've kept all my vital (alk, cal, mag, no3, po4) parameters steady for months now as per board advise, but acros continue to vex me.
BigJohnny
2500 Club Member
chemipure elite contains gfo, so yes you are running po4 absorbants!I'm not actually running any PO4 absorbants. The only thing I have in there is a bag of chemipure elite that's been sitting in my sump for about two months now(can't reach it without taking some stuff apart so it's staying there so far. I've greatly reduced my dosing but have yet to really see ca & alk come down. As of Monday I am at 8.9/460/1340. I've been focusing on feeding more heavily and I think I'm seeing some positive changes in the one acro that's been doing decently. Base is starting to color up a bit (green for now) and looks like it's beginning to spread out over the epoxy I used to mount it. My green slimer though still looks very unhappy. Further tissue recession and some browning.
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mstockmaster
Active Member
True, but I'm pretty sure they'd be exhausted by now. Either way I'll pull them tonight
OP
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mstockmaster
Active Member
The only thing I've ever heard of gfo leaching into a tank is phosphate after it is exhausted. It's iron oxide, not much else it could leach.
I hear you they seem to be vexing a lot of us.
To the second point I guess I was trying to say that for growth I thing that these are the things that the corals care about, but that isn't to say they other external factors can't do them harm. If you like of them like a plant in your garden... give them light, water and nutrients and they can grow, but if you hit them with a herbicide they die, but if you didn't have any herbicide in your garage there is not chance for the herbicide to kill them. Obviously I know that corals aren't plants, I am just using as an analogy to make my point. Its not that that coral in your tank don't have everything they want an need to grow, it is something external that is actually killing them. I am just trying to think outside of the box here. The fact that so many people have the same issue with the same symptoms and no one has come up with a rational of why this is occurring is interesting. But, the story is always the, my SPS are dying, my parameters are all normal, triton shows nothing is wrong, I used dead rock. So what is the um-measurable magic thing that eventually happens that results in people finally being able to keep the corals they have struggled with for years.
I think in a way it is an expression of balance of equilibrium, the real question is what is is an equilibrium of? What is it about the dry rock that results in an extended breakin period.
g5flier, I think you hit the nail on the head. I can't tell you how many times in the past couple of months I have seen posts almost identical to the OP. And the running theme through out most of them is the use of some amount of dead rock in the system. I myself am experiencing very similar issues, fish and nems happy, sps sad even the couple zoas I have in my tank aren't super thrilled (open but not extended, and certainly not reproducing). While I didn't used live rock, I used from from an existing tank of mine that had been essentially left to die (the rock that is) when it became completely invested with grape caulerpa. When the caulerpa was finally gone the rock was stark white, no sign of coralline, no spones, no other macro, nothing. For all intents and purpose it was dead When i started up my new tank, I just transferred the old now clean rock over and started up (See picture below for rock right after the transfer). At this point the tank has been running for 9 months. Any SPS i have ever tried to put in this tank will look good of a couple of days, then the polpys will close up, and the tissue will start peeling from the skeleton. I have been scratching my head and trying to figure out what is going on for months. Mind you I am not a novice. I have been keeping salt fish and corals for probably close to 15 years. I am totally on board with you this is a biodiversity thing. Reefs are very complex ecosystems.
Now I will add a small wrinkle to the story.... I have actually been able to save sps frags that have initially been placed in my main system and took a turn down hill to the point of some serious tissue loss. And how did I do this..... I transferred them to my small 15 gallon bare bottom frag tank that contains zero rock beyond the couple pieces that frags are mounted to. This system is completely isolated, just 15 gallons of water. What is interesting is that I can take a frag that is looking not so good and place it in there and with hours the polys are back out the coral is happy. SPS actually thrive in this tank, new frags are encrusting within days and so far I am getting excellent growth. Why it works so well i don't know. And it certainly doesn't support the biodiversity argument.
But what if we think about it as a numbers game..... the ratio of mirco fauna to inhabitable surfaces. Is it possible that if you have a low level of mico fauna and a high "inhabitable" surface area of substrate (rock, stand, etc) there is some period of "colonization" that occurs that creates an unstable environment. Now I am not talking bacterial necessarily, I am talking about all the of other things. Bacteria should spread to every surface in an aquarium very quickly. In this theory it wouldn't be the lack of creatures, it would be the actual expansion of these creatures that is actually causing the issue, and once you reach some critical mass where the actual colonization has leveled off or isn't expanding things start working. Which bring us back to the barren frag tank.... and why it works.... there is no other creatures trying to colonize the tank, so the "balance" has been reached. Could this all be complete BS.... sure, but it does seem to explain why one of my systems works and one of my systems doesn't and why using dead rock that has been seeded seems to take much longer time to support SPS than a tank that is filled with true live from with its surfaces covered with critters.
Would love to hear peoples thoughts.....
Thank you very much for the compliment! All I know is when I read the similarities between what happened to a very well known and successful reefer (Mike P) and when I implemented his theory into mine it totally 100% worked and still is. My corals are doing much better with some live rock and SPS is encrusting and growing. Whats happening in your frag tank is amazing, going to have to try this at some point. Thank you for sharing it!
It would be interesting to see (if there was a way to) if there is a correlation between the number of post on the various forums like this one, and the movement from people starting tanks with true live rock to starting with dry rock.
Maybe those folks over at BRS could do a BRS investigates.... take three identical setups and build one with live rock, one with dry rock, and with with no rock and see how long it takes for each to come to a place where they can support the growth of SPS. Heck if some one want to provide me this the equipment I will run the experiment.
Richards_reef
Active Member
It's funny to me that people say manufactured dry rock can cause these problems. I've had brs reef saver dry rock (40lbs), and some macro dry rock from the lfs (40 lbs), and a single piece (softball sized) of actual live rock. I've been able to keep anything. Granted before I put it in my tank I soaked it in bleach for a day, dried it out for a day, an h202 soak for a day, then a plain tap water soak for a week. Maybe it was how I added it, Idk.
Also to note, I did use leds before and nothing really grew just kinda survived. Once I put t5s on the tank I could already see the growth and color improvement in a week. I do know that leds can grow healthy corals but for me it was my limiting factor. If you have the money and time to experiment, I would suggest trying to add a different light source, even just 2 t5s with your leds just to see.
Also to note, I did use leds before and nothing really grew just kinda survived. Once I put t5s on the tank I could already see the growth and color improvement in a week. I do know that leds can grow healthy corals but for me it was my limiting factor. If you have the money and time to experiment, I would suggest trying to add a different light source, even just 2 t5s with your leds just to see.
There are many successful SPS tanks that have been started with "dead rock" that are young as well. I brought the subject up on one of my local forums after the article on Mike's tank was posted. Most of the responders with SPS tanks actually used dead rock without issue.
My experience has had some ups and downs. I started the 75g with dead rock and had great luck with a few SPS at the 4-6 month mark just to watch a few of them die. One acro and a monti cap survived but I was never able to figure out exactly what caused the issue. The tank is right about 18 months old now and I went SPS dominant about five months ago. I've had one RTN while I was out of town a couple of months ago and had another start to do the same (in the same location about two weeks ago that I was able to stabilize (pictured below). The only items I can pinpoint as possible causes were salinity (dropped from 34 to 32ppt during a water change where I forgot to account for the volume of the reactor and skimmer when I did maintenance) and some changes to the lighting color and intensity. The Copps undata is always the first thing to show signs of stress (not sure how it is doing but was recovering when I left on this trip) but both times it has done this, my Triton results failed to show anything alarming (latest results here).
Edit to add: My rock was also BRS reef saver and I did nothing to it prior to placing in the tank. Two pieces of Fiji live rock (5-6lbs of the 55-60lb total used) were also placed in the tank at start up.
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Richards_reef
Active Member
OK this is a long one to answer. Had a 150 for 2 years started with 40lbs macro rock from the lfs, 40lbs of sand and no sps in this tank just softies and lps. This tank was run with just leds (2 different major brands during the time) . Nothing grew just survived.
About a year after this tank was set up I also set up a 30gallon bare bottom frag tank. I took a couple pieces of rock from my main display and used them in the frag tank (same cleaning ritual as described earlier for the rock). The first month of the frag tank I used leds, then a 2 bulb t5 fixture was given to me for free, so I said heck with it I'll throw it on. Everything I put in that frag tank after this point took off while the main display still just survived. Almost immediately after I noticed the growth and color improvements I started adding SPS to my frag tank(after a month and a half to 2 months after starting the tank). Out of I think 5or6 sps I lost only one(don't know why) the rest took off.
At the 2year mark the 150 sprung a leak and I decided to tear it down. All the coral I had left and put it in the frag tank and fish into a 40gallon quarantine until I could get another tank. All the rock I bleached and h202 soak and dried for a month, and during this time I gave half of it away.
The most recent tank is a 75 gallon. I took the left over rock and used it on top of ordering 40lbs from brs(same cleaning practices). The tank was set up back in March and the day I set it up I used prodibio start up. I added my fish the next day. The coral I added over the next 3 weeks. So in a period of 3 weeks I added evening to this tank. I originally started this tank off with leds but after a month found a 4 bulb t5, and everything has been doing fine and growing rapidly since. Yes sps included. The only casualties I've had in this tank was 2 fish and 1 coral that wasn't doing well when I bought it.
I wish I set up a thread about my systems so I could just show you everything lol.
There are many many variables, obviously and I am certainly not trying to say that I have the answer, I am just posing a theory. To this point a tank with truly dead rock would be no different than my frag tank with zero live rock. There is not significant biology present that is colonizing the space. I my thinking the situation that is bad is "dead rock" that is not completely dead, or systems where there is mostly dead rock and then some amount of live rock is added to seed the system. Just taking a quick look at your build thread for you 75, it looks like the rock work is relatively devoid of life. Please don't take that as an insults it is not intended to be. It is what is expected for starting a tank with dead rock. You will get some algae and you will get some coralline but all of the other micro flora and fauna will not be present. They would have to hitch hike into the system and with that being the main mechanism of entering the tank it is going to take an awful long time and a whole lot of differnt hitchhikers to have anything that looks like you would see in the ocean. That all being said your experience and die off event may truly be linked to something else. Just the same as if I spiked a ton of alk into my frag tank that is currently doing well, I would kill a bunch of stuff.
Again I am just trying to use some outside the box thinking and throw out a theory that I haven't heard before. But since there are so may variables involved we need to try to compare apples to apples instead of apples to acros.
Thanks for the reply Richard. Like I have said, there are many many variables and not every situation is the same. In my theory your system is no different tank a tank with zero rock.... there is not other biological life present. It is possible that the LEDs you were using just weren't cutting it. Or the settings on the LEDs weren't right. There are so many setting with those darn things it is difficult to know what to do sometimes. T5s and MHs are KISS, you set them and forget them. You know you have a spectrum that has proven to work and has long as you have them set close to around the right high you know you aren't going to burn most things up.
It took quite a while for the rock to come around; it took about 13 months before the coralline really took off on the rock and about the same time, the pineapple sponge started to disappear and get replaced by much larger colonies of fluorescent green sponge. I'm sure the next year will bring even more change though it will be less and less visible on the outside. I'll be setting up the 150g in similar fashion with mostly dead rock and some Tampa based rock, though in larger quantities this time around (roughly 25% live).
My statement wasn't in regard to my own tank though, it was in regard to the responses from other reefers when I posed the article. I wasn't linking the article with my die off event, I just found it an interesting topic for discussion over there.
Richards_reef
Active Member
I agree with everything your saying. I do have a ton of life in my system, even though I intentionally fried it twice. Not as much as if I would have went with straight live rock but I also eradicated any of the pests in the process (always had 1 softball size piece of real live rock that I didn't bleach) . Every system is different. My point was basically that I don't understand why people have problems with dry rock, and that my problem wasn't the dry rock it was my lighting. Hopefully I'm helping someone out there.
XNavyDiver
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Well speaking for myself as someone who started his tank with dry rock and LEDs, this was the first time I've ever started a tank in this fashion as the last tank I had was back in the 90's with real live rock and VHO's. My last time around I didn't measure things like alk cal mag as sps corals were not anything I had in the tank.
The timeframe in my mind for when the tank would sustain sps corals I think was way off to start.
But the good news is, I've inoculated the tank twice in the last couple of months with GARF Grunge and now the tank is starting to level out nicely. The tank and refugium/sump is crawling with life. I've got a few dozen sps frags that have been doing really well, and everything seems to love the lighting so far.
I'm gonna get some tester acro frags in a few months. I don't know how they'll do, but judging by how this tank has progressed and matured, I'm optimistic. I think the AB+ settings on the led lights are a great spectrum.
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