Captive bred fish: Does it matter? Does it matter to you?

Does it matter to you whether your fish are captive-bred or wild caught?

  • I only buy captive bred fish.

    Votes: 110 14.7%
  • It matters, but I will buy either captive-bred or wild-caught.

    Votes: 526 70.3%
  • I think wild-caught fish are the better option.

    Votes: 18 2.4%
  • I don’t care where the fish were bred.

    Votes: 94 12.6%

  • Total voters
    748

FishPureLuck

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 23, 2022
Messages
116
Reaction score
117
Location
Jensen Beach, FL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Does it cost more to raise different types of fish from egg? Seems to me that it should be about the same. I understand that some fish produce more fry than others, but there is a huge price difference between CB fish. If it's expensive to buy wild caught, the CB people crank up the price to match or beat it. I guess it's a business, and they really don't care about protecting the environment, but they sell under the guise that they do.
 

fish farmer

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
5,400
Location
Brandon, VT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Does it cost more to raise different types of fish from egg? Seems to me that it should be about the same. I understand that some fish produce more fry than others, but there is a huge price difference between CB fish. If it's expensive to buy wild caught, the CB people crank up the price to match or beat it. I guess it's a business, and they really don't care about protecting the environment, but they sell under the guise that they do.
Many species have a pelagic egg/larval stage, they aren't guarding eggs on substrate. This is one of the challenges, try duplicating an open ocean system on land and make it profitable.
 

FishPureLuck

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 23, 2022
Messages
116
Reaction score
117
Location
Jensen Beach, FL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Many species have a pelagic egg/larval stage, they aren't guarding eggs on substrate. This is one of the challenges, try duplicating an open ocean system on land and make it profitable.
I understand that, but I can almost guarantee that a Royal Gramma and a Golden Cuban are equally as easy to breed and raise fry for sale yet there is a $545.00 price difference. I understand the effort and money required to get the Cubans, but it's been 5 years since they started breeding them, so there is no reason to sell them for $600 other than to make a buck. They are no longer rare if they are being captive bred.
 

Rkdunn1

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2022
Messages
27
Reaction score
16
Location
Frisco
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Captive bred fish: Does it matter? Does it matter to you?

Many saltwater fish retailers offer both wild-caught and captive-bred fish. Sometimes there is a price difference – does the pricing impact your decision? It has been said that nearly 90% of saltwater fish in the aquarium trade are wild but it appears that more and more fish are being captive-bred each year. Tell us in the thread below if you think that the tension between captive-bred fish and wild-caught fish? Let us know if you think it matters and if it matters to you. We believe this is an important and encourage everyone to be respectful as you share your perspectives!

PacificEastCaptiveBredTang.jpeg

Photo of captive bred yellow tang by @PacificEastAquaculture

We realize that over time perspectives may change. Whether this is due to a change in culture, availability, information or other reasons, sometimes thoughts and ideas on topics morph and shift. Here is an R2R article about captive-bred vs wild-caught fish from 2017. Have opinions changed since then?
I usually choose the one that is the best price. If the fish is captive bred and is the cheapest then yay! But I won’t pay 300 for a captive bred fish if the is a wild caught one in the tank beside is for 100.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,559
Reaction score
21,787
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Captive bred fish: Does it matter? Does it matter to you?

Many saltwater fish retailers offer both wild-caught and captive-bred fish. Sometimes there is a price difference – does the pricing impact your decision? It has been said that nearly 90% of saltwater fish in the aquarium trade are wild but it appears that more and more fish are being captive-bred each year. Tell us in the thread below if you think that the tension between captive-bred fish and wild-caught fish? Let us know if you think it matters and if it matters to you. We believe this is an important and encourage everyone to be respectful as you share your perspectives!

PacificEastCaptiveBredTang.jpeg

Photo of captive bred yellow tang by @PacificEastAquaculture

We realize that over time perspectives may change. Whether this is due to a change in culture, availability, information or other reasons, sometimes thoughts and ideas on topics morph and shift. Here is an R2R article about captive-bred vs wild-caught fish from 2017. Have opinions changed since then?
I prefer wild fish that are collected responsibly in a sustainable manner. the problem in my opinion with captive bred fish is immunity - which is lacking. So - it may be difficult to ensure that every time you add a coral, etc - that you won't introduce some disease to which the fish will not be immune (because it hasn't been exposed to it). Mixing wild and captive-bred fish can do the same thing - unless the new fish are quarantined/treated with a proper QT protocol (again IMO)

Then there are inbreeding issues which may result in shorter lifespan, the carbon footprint of breeding centers - which may or may not be larger than wild fish shipping.

I have no objection to others preferring captive-bred fish - in the future if certain groups have there way, there may be no wild harvesting of fish - meaning that captive-bred fish will be the only way to go.
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,559
Reaction score
21,787
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
That is a very solid argument. However you could make much the same argument for quarantined fish. I'm 7 for 7 for CB fish and that's definitely better than wild. Not coming with parasites, knowing they weren’t collected with cyanide, and just knowing they didn’t go through a crazy shipping process to get to us is probably the difference.
I believe you're incorrect - you cannot make the same argument for quarantined fish. Though it's often stated that 'Quarantine destroys the immune system', thats just not scientifically true. The 30 days of QT will not remove immunity from the fish.
 

Slocke

Wrasse and Eel Nerd
View Badges
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
5,885
Reaction score
19,651
Location
Atlanta
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I believe you're incorrect - you cannot make the same argument for quarantined fish. Though it's often stated that 'Quarantine destroys the immune system', thats just not scientifically true. The 30 days of QT will not remove immunity from the fish.
Yes they will keep some immunity (and all if all we're talking about is 30 days). However then you are adding it to a presumably fully QT tank and over time immunity to many diseases will ware off and on top of that the immune system will "forget" how to deal with disease leaving it more susceptible to disease. Immune systems that do not periodically experience disease tend to recognize disease late and overreact when they do find it often leading to the immune system killing the host.

Of course the word many in there is important as many immunities will also last a lifetime (or long enough). So you certainly are at least partially correct but this is a debate we could have forever. I'd know I used to work under PEPFAR and there is no good answer when it comes to whether extreme avoidance or periodic exposure is the best solution for disease. We would have these debates all the time at conferences.

Edit: Not saying don't quarantine as fish tanks are closed system unless we add it.
 
Last edited:

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,559
Reaction score
21,787
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Yes they will keep some immunity (and all if all we're talking about is 30 days). However then you are adding it to a presumably fully QT tank and over time immunity to many diseases will ware off and on top of that the immune system will "forget" how to deal with disease leaving it more susceptible to disease. Immune systems that do not periodically experience disease tend to recognize disease late and overreact when they do find it often leading to the immune system killing the host.

Of course the word many in there is important as many immunities will also last a lifetime (or long enough). So you certainly are at least partially correct but this is a debate we could have forever. I'd know I used to work under PEPFAR and there is no good answer when it comes to whether extreme avoidance or periodic exposure is the best solution for disease. We would have these debates all the time at conferences.
I don't think there is a huge debate. It's pretty clear - that at least with CI, that immunity wanes - starting at about 6 months without reexposure - what's not clear is whether it drops to 0 or somewhere in between. It's also not known, for example, if velvet immunity lasts longer than 6 months, forever, or less (because I'm not sure it's been studied) Same for multiple other parasites.

My main point was that QT/copper/etc does not 'destroy' a fish's immune system - as some people state. Thus, if you QT all of your fish and coral properly, you won't have CI etc in your tank, and the fish will not need 'specific' immunity to CI. In any case all of the fish will have their innate immune systems intact.

When you look at the number of people who quarantine at all (prob 50%, Quarantine with proper medication and proper dose (<50%) many tanks are going to have parasites, etc present. So combining wild and CB fish together may be problematic IMHO - and combining wild coral with those fish may also be problmatic.
 

Slocke

Wrasse and Eel Nerd
View Badges
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
5,885
Reaction score
19,651
Location
Atlanta
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I don't think there is a huge debate. It's pretty clear - that at least with CI, that immunity wanes - starting at about 6 months without reexposure - what's not clear is whether it drops to 0 or somewhere in between. It's also not known, for example, if velvet immunity lasts longer than 6 months, forever, or less (because I'm not sure it's been studied) Same for multiple other parasites.

My main point was that QT/copper/etc does not 'destroy' a fish's immune system - as some people state. Thus, if you QT all of your fish and coral properly, you won't have CI etc in your tank, and the fish will not need 'specific' immunity to CI. In any case all of the fish will have their innate immune systems intact.

When you look at the number of people who quarantine at all (prob 50%, Quarantine with proper medication and proper dose (<50%) many tanks are going to have parasites, etc present. So combining wild and CB fish together may be problematic IMHO - and combining wild coral with those fish may also be problmatic.

Interesting! Obviously my knowledge is not to do with fish so you’d definitely know more than me. Thanks!
 

watdachuck

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,028
Reaction score
984
Location
Columbus, OH
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My concern on only purchasing captive bred fish or coral is that many collection sites (remote reefs) have gained protection specifically because the benefit these sales bring to their community.

There needs to be a safe balance and policing of capture practices, but both are critical to a thriving hobby and ocean for the future.
 

Biota_Marine

Jake At Biota
View Badges
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
592
Reaction score
1,587
Location
Fort Lauderdale
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hopefully I can provide a bit of insight and if I missed anything y'all want me to touch on please tag me. Obviously, much of what I'm saying from personal insight so some of my collegues within Biota may not agree but I'm also happy to ask any of them their opinions here too.

(Allow a strict certain amount of specimens to be collected BUT only by research facilities) I believe that if this had been the case we would have much more captive bred options now and people would have likely "bought into" the idea thus speeding up the growth of captive bred specimens in the hobby.
This actually has always been the case in Hawaii. If you are a scientific research facility you have been able to collect broodstock throughout the closure. Obviously it's heavily moderated because of the amount of people that would just sell them but the DLNR allows for scientific collection.
I've always been skeptical of business model of captive bred. It only works if wild caught becomes increasingly more expensive.

And it seems that there are a number of people pushing that narrative to promote higher prices for wild caught just to make captive bred feasible.

I personally love the idea of purchasing captive fish, but not at the cost that's being presented.
We actually were breeding yellow tang before the closure. There was no reason other than it is a popular fish for the aquarium trade and many people wanted a captive-bred alternative to wild caught and it would provide insight into other tang species. They were much more expensive that the wilds and we did sell every single one we produced because people care about the source of their animals. Obviously as the closure happened and now we've been playing catchup trying to meet the demand of the yellow tang. I'd like to think people are buying yellows from us because they care and not because it's one of the only available options.
Let's face it. The carbon footprint and impacts of marine tanks is horrendous. And I dare you to tell me differently from the salt water we throw down drains, to the online purchasing, boxes and polystyrene containers etc and not to mention the power consumption used for all the life support systems. We need to shift to CB fish as much as possible. And I will take flack for this comment, but if we can't afford the increase in prices for CB then we should reconsider if this is the hobby for us. We MUST do what we can to lesson our impact. It also starts with the fish catchers in the countries that supply fish. Their governments need to support more local hatcheries. This will lesson the impact on the fishermen's livelihoods and the reefs' futures as we shift away from destroying the reefs. And for the record, it's not an easy shift to make as a hobbiest, especially when you live in remote areas and are dependent on online stores that may not carry many CB fish. Let's think a bit smarter about all our purchases and decisions going forward. I know I need to.
Yes, Carbon footprint does have a factor especially when we have facilities in Hawaii, Palau, NC, and Florida but we also think about this heavily internally. If we're shipping 100 mandarins that are captive-bred and eating prepared diets that's hopefully 1000 mandarins that aren't taken out of the wild, shipped across the globe, and starving through the chain of custody. We'd have to be pretty oblivious not to realize that for every fish that shows up to the end user, there are many more that don't make it that far. Those that worked in wholesalers and pet stores can explain the significance but I can honestly say since working at Biota and seeing our shipping success from each of our facilities even through delays and weather and everything else it's ruined working anywhere that deals primarily with wild caught.
I also personally think that CB should actually be less expensive than wild caught, not more expensive, simply due to what all is involved in collecting and shipping, etc. (Not that I think breeding them is easy or inexpensive, just comparatively speaking).
The real issue is when you breed a fish it doesn't pop out at a sellable size and that can vary by species. When purchasing a wild collected fish most of that cost is in the shipping because casting a net and getting hundreds of sellable fish doesn't take a ton of time but for me to sell a batch of yellow tang it's 4-6 months of growout which is rent, utilities, feeds, water quality, and tons of incredibly talented employees (ie expensive) to just sell the animal. If the stores or wholesalers had to hold every fish for 4-6 months their pricing would be impossible.
But as far as fish health and hardiness goes, I would rather "not" have a captive bred fish as they were not exposed to many, if any diseases so they won't have any immunity to anything.
We have very strict biosecurity measures in place, but no aquaculture facility is 100% sterile. Our aquacultured fishes' immune systems get plenty of exercise; we actually do use some natural sea water at our breeding facilities. When they get to our Florida facility for distribution, we occasionally do see some evidence of infection, and our marine biologists diagnose and treat as needed. Some of our customers know that we sometimes delay orders because I run diagnostics on our fish daily, and if I find even the slightest speck of what might be something, I hold back orders and won't ship. I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Especially since I'm not seeing evidence that the main three players today are living the life like the Wolf of Wallstreet.
I'm embarassed to let you know the amount of time I eat ramen a week. We're working on it though and growing everyday but I can guarantee none of us are living a lavish lifestyle and every single employee I have at my Florida facility is with us because they're incredibly passionate about what we do and how we're changing the hobby.
However, in order for this to be a viable business model, you either have to change the hearts and minds of people by selling the idea that this statement is true:
Mentioned above that we do breed fish that are much cheaper in the aquarium trade and people purchase them because they do believe in making a difference in the hobby and the choices that make sense for their aquariums. People can find coral beauties, pink square anthias, court jesters, and many of our other fish for much cheaper and still choose to purchase from us. That must mean people care about the source of their pets or we're doing something right which I'm cool with both those options.
I would disagree for the sheer fact that just like everything in this hobby, prices go up for no real reason. And I always attribute it to the revolving door which is this hobby.
Pricing does sometimes go up for no reason in the hobby like with designer corals or new fad products but I think with fish it mostly stems to changes in policy, sourcing, and shipping. Obviously, everyone has talked about shipping the most the past 2 years since it's ballooned to unthinkable levels. Other changes are how the fish are collected (dynamite, cyanide, net training, overseeing certifications, equipment expenses, ect.) or quality of life changes for those collecting. Obviously, you want to sell the animals at the highest price as a fisherman and if someone is willing to pay more they are the ones that will get the fish, that might translate into a specific wholesaler having more diversity but also being more expensive.
The biggest difference I see between the 2 is that anyone can grow and propagate coral with a certain degree of success. But not everyone can rear fish fry. And I don't think what's stopping the ones that would want to is money, space, equipment etc, it's the knowledge to do so.
If anyone asks me how to breed any of our fish I usually provide a breakdown. Obviously, there's IP involved but most poeple ask about the yellow tang. There's dozens of scientific papers on how to breed them and the real reason it isn't as abundant as clownfish breeding is because it's very expensive and very hard. We are also always improving and a ton of our cost is research to make things better and improve which in Hawaii is all publishable data. There's also a ton of great people in groups like MBI who are happy to help anyone with a breeding project. Many MACNA talks do have specific breakdowns on how to breed things and are occompanied by scientific published papers. I would love for someone to breed other tang like achilles, tomini, naso, etc. because I'm also a hobbyist and I want to buy them.
Does it cost more to raise different types of fish from egg? Seems to me that it should be about the same. I understand that some fish produce more fry than others, but there is a huge price difference between CB fish. If it's expensive to buy wild caught, the CB people crank up the price to match or beat it. I guess it's a business, and they really don't care about protecting the environment, but they sell under the guise that they do.
Yes, cost is significantly different by species because there are different spawning queues, frequency of spawns, success rates, grow-out times, live feeds timings, etc. The real question is why is a mocha helmet picasso snow shoes clown more expensive than a regular ocellaris when it's the same species?

Also with the cuban basslet vs royal gramma, yes they are similar to breed but there are some differences in raising them but I wouldn't say anywhere near a ton of them are being produced. That facility is only able to produce so many which is why they're limited and still expensive but much less expensive than $3000+ many years ago. I believe in the last 8 years we've had them go from $1200 to $800 and now $600.

Hopefully I provided some insight to these questions. Oh, obviously I'm on team "I only buy captive bred fish" because they're so much cooler and it's awesome to show people a tank and say nothing here is taken out of the wild.
 

Sisterlimonpot

Effortless Perfection
View Badges
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
3,800
Reaction score
7,814
Location
Litchfield Park
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I'd like to think people are buying yellows from us because they care and not because it's one of the only available options.
Can you elaborate on this? What does it mean to "care"? And I'm not asking to pull on my heartstrings. I would like to be educated on this. Is ornamental fish collecting not sustainable? Is it somehow inhumane?

I'm having a hard time making that connection. Don't get me wrong, I can understand how somebody can take that point of view, but I feel that they come to the conclusion based on feelings and not fact. It seems to me there has to be hard evidence to say otherwise, and that's what I'm asking about.
I believe in the last 8 years we've had them go from $1200 to $800 and now $600.
This is awesome to read. Do you think eventually you will get the more common fish like [let's say] the yellow tang down to a reasonable price ~$50?
 

MamaP

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
347
Reaction score
578
Location
Tampa, Florida
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hopefully I can provide a bit of insight and if I missed anything y'all want me to touch on please tag me. Obviously, much of what I'm saying from personal insight so some of my collegues within Biota may not agree but I'm also happy to ask any of them their opinions here too.


This actually has always been the case in Hawaii. If you are a scientific research facility you have been able to collect broodstock throughout the closure. Obviously it's heavily moderated because of the amount of people that would just sell them but the DLNR allows for scientific collection.

We actually were breeding yellow tang before the closure. There was no reason other than it is a popular fish for the aquarium trade and many people wanted a captive-bred alternative to wild caught and it would provide insight into other tang species. They were much more expensive that the wilds and we did sell every single one we produced because people care about the source of their animals. Obviously as the closure happened and now we've been playing catchup trying to meet the demand of the yellow tang. I'd like to think people are buying yellows from us because they care and not because it's one of the only available options.

Yes, Carbon footprint does have a factor especially when we have facilities in Hawaii, Palau, NC, and Florida but we also think about this heavily internally. If we're shipping 100 mandarins that are captive-bred and eating prepared diets that's hopefully 1000 mandarins that aren't taken out of the wild, shipped across the globe, and starving through the chain of custody. We'd have to be pretty oblivious not to realize that for every fish that shows up to the end user, there are many more that don't make it that far. Those that worked in wholesalers and pet stores can explain the significance but I can honestly say since working at Biota and seeing our shipping success from each of our facilities even through delays and weather and everything else it's ruined working anywhere that deals primarily with wild caught.

The real issue is when you breed a fish it doesn't pop out at a sellable size and that can vary by species. When purchasing a wild collected fish most of that cost is in the shipping because casting a net and getting hundreds of sellable fish doesn't take a ton of time but for me to sell a batch of yellow tang it's 4-6 months of growout which is rent, utilities, feeds, water quality, and tons of incredibly talented employees (ie expensive) to just sell the animal. If the stores or wholesalers had to hold every fish for 4-6 months their pricing would be impossible.

We have very strict biosecurity measures in place, but no aquaculture facility is 100% sterile. Our aquacultured fishes' immune systems get plenty of exercise; we actually do use some natural sea water at our breeding facilities. When they get to our Florida facility for distribution, we occasionally do see some evidence of infection, and our marine biologists diagnose and treat as needed. Some of our customers know that we sometimes delay orders because I run diagnostics on our fish daily, and if I find even the slightest speck of what might be something, I hold back orders and won't ship. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I'm embarassed to let you know the amount of time I eat ramen a week. We're working on it though and growing everyday but I can guarantee none of us are living a lavish lifestyle and every single employee I have at my Florida facility is with us because they're incredibly passionate about what we do and how we're changing the hobby.

Mentioned above that we do breed fish that are much cheaper in the aquarium trade and people purchase them because they do believe in making a difference in the hobby and the choices that make sense for their aquariums. People can find coral beauties, pink square anthias, court jesters, and many of our other fish for much cheaper and still choose to purchase from us. That must mean people care about the source of their pets or we're doing something right which I'm cool with both those options.

Pricing does sometimes go up for no reason in the hobby like with designer corals or new fad products but I think with fish it mostly stems to changes in policy, sourcing, and shipping. Obviously, everyone has talked about shipping the most the past 2 years since it's ballooned to unthinkable levels. Other changes are how the fish are collected (dynamite, cyanide, net training, overseeing certifications, equipment expenses, ect.) or quality of life changes for those collecting. Obviously, you want to sell the animals at the highest price as a fisherman and if someone is willing to pay more they are the ones that will get the fish, that might translate into a specific wholesaler having more diversity but also being more expensive.

If anyone asks me how to breed any of our fish I usually provide a breakdown. Obviously, there's IP involved but most poeple ask about the yellow tang. There's dozens of scientific papers on how to breed them and the real reason it isn't as abundant as clownfish breeding is because it's very expensive and very hard. We are also always improving and a ton of our cost is research to make things better and improve which in Hawaii is all publishable data. There's also a ton of great people in groups like MBI who are happy to help anyone with a breeding project. Many MACNA talks do have specific breakdowns on how to breed things and are occompanied by scientific published papers. I would love for someone to breed other tang like achilles, tomini, naso, etc. because I'm also a hobbyist and I want to buy them.

Yes, cost is significantly different by species because there are different spawning queues, frequency of spawns, success rates, grow-out times, live feeds timings, etc. The real question is why is a mocha helmet picasso snow shoes clown more expensive than a regular ocellaris when it's the same species?

Also with the cuban basslet vs royal gramma, yes they are similar to breed but there are some differences in raising them but I wouldn't say anywhere near a ton of them are being produced. That facility is only able to produce so many which is why they're limited and still expensive but much less expensive than $3000+ many years ago. I believe in the last 8 years we've had them go from $1200 to $800 and now $600.

Hopefully I provided some insight to these questions. Oh, obviously I'm on team "I only buy captive bred fish" because they're so much cooler and it's awesome to show people a tank and say nothing here is taken out of the wild.
"Obviously, everyone has talked about shipping the most the past 2 years since it's ballooned to unthinkable levels. Other changes are how the fish are collected (dynamite, cyanide, net training, overseeing certifications, equipment expenses, ect.) or quality of life changes for those collecting. Obviously, you want to sell the animals at the highest price as a fisherman and if someone is willing to pay more they are the ones that will get the fish, that might translate into a specific wholesaler having more diversity but also being more expensive."

That's what I meant when I said that it seems as if wild caught would be more expensive. Add to the above the expense of the boat, fuel, upkeep, etc., plus the equipment used to catch them. I do understand what you mean, though, having to provide the life support for 4-6 months while they grow. I'm glad you all do what you do, and I truly hope there will be a lot more CB options in the near future.
Thank you for the insight!
 

Acrocrazy725

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
58
Reaction score
52
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Captive bred fish: Does it matter? Does it matter to you?

Many saltwater fish retailers offer both wild-caught and captive-bred fish. Sometimes there is a price difference – does the pricing impact your decision? It has been said that nearly 90% of saltwater fish in the aquarium trade are wild but it appears that more and more fish are being captive-bred each year. Tell us in the thread below if you think that the tension between captive-bred fish and wild-caught fish? Let us know if you think it matters and if it matters to you. We believe this is an important and encourage everyone to be respectful as you share your perspectives!

PacificEastCaptiveBredTang.jpeg

Photo of captive bred yellow tang by @PacificEastAquaculture

We realize that over time perspectives may change. Whether this is due to a change in culture, availability, information or other reasons, sometimes thoughts and ideas on topics morph and shift. Here is an R2R article about captive-bred vs wild-caught fish from 2017. Have opinions changed since then?
Some day hopefully all fish will be captive bred and we will only take from the wild fish to strengthen blood lines for heathy populations of the captive bred fish.
Unfortunately, that will never happen unless the breeding of captive bred fish becomes economically beneficial to the business owners attempting it: if people can make money doing it Then the practice will continue. This is the world we actually live in and as much as I would like it not to be that way, it is.
if we want to see it continue (captive breeding) then start paying more for captive bred fish that in some cases don’t look as good, but are definitely a better choice. Will have less problems and are better for hobby.
There are a lot more fish available CB today than 10 years ago. But we have a really long way to go to sustain our hobby on 100% CB fish. I hope we can get there in my lifetime.
 

fish farmer

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 13, 2017
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
5,400
Location
Brandon, VT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Can you elaborate on this? What does it mean to "care"? And I'm not asking to pull on my heartstrings. I would like to be educated on this. Is ornamental fish collecting not sustainable? Is it somehow inhumane?
Using cyanide to collect ornamental fish still happens.

Personally I want a fish that is eating and looks healthy. Full belly, clean looking fins, full shoulders. If the fish in the store looks like it has taken a trip around the world and it didn't get an in flight meal....I'll pass.
 

Sisterlimonpot

Effortless Perfection
View Badges
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
3,800
Reaction score
7,814
Location
Litchfield Park
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Using cyanide to collect ornamental fish still happens.

Personally I want a fish that is eating and looks healthy. Full belly, clean looking fins, full shoulders. If the fish in the store looks like it has taken a trip around the world and it didn't get an in flight meal....I'll pass.
I hear you. Working with the same evidence everyone else has, I've concluded cyanide trapping happens. I've heard stories of cyanide to explain sudden fish death. And I'm not denying it, credible people with the means to autopsy fishes have confirmed. My understanding is that the only way to know for certain is to clip a fin and test it. How many people have the means to definitively rule in cyanide?

When it comes to cyanide trapping, my question is, does it happening more than we suspect? Or are those outliers that are used to stake an argument?

A buddy came and hung out yesterday and he needed an algae clip. The closest place to get that is petco, so we drove. Mind you, I haven't stepped foot in an lfs or petco in years. When I went to their saltwater section, I was amazed at how good the fish looked. They actually had some healthy looking fish, i was truly amazed. To validate your last paragraph we would have to assume petco has started carrying captive bred fish, because 90% of the fish that were in there fell under your criteria for fish selection.
 

1979fishgeek

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Messages
872
Reaction score
896
Location
Hampshire UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I’ll take captive bred over wild caught everytime, unfortunately there still not enough species being bred commercially. In my experience cb are much hardier and already used to life in a glass box so don’t stress as much.

I’m convinced cyanide caught fish are still a huge issue resulting in high mortality rates and a lot of unexplained deaths.
 

FishPureLuck

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 23, 2022
Messages
116
Reaction score
117
Location
Jensen Beach, FL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Also with the cuban basslet vs royal gramma, yes they are similar to breed but there are some differences in raising them but I wouldn't say anywhere near a ton of them are being produced. That facility is only able to produce so many which is why they're limited and still expensive but much less expensive than $3000+ many years ago. I believe in the last 8 years we've had them go from $1200 to $800 and now $600.

Hopefully I provided some insight to these questions. Oh, obviously I'm on team "I only buy captive bred fish" because they're so much cooler and it's awesome to show people a tank and say nothing here is taken out of the wild.
What I'm getting at is that it doesn't cost 10 times more to breed/raise an almost identical fish. And the inflated price, while cheaper than it used to be, is still inflated for profit only. You run a business, I get it, but I get tired of companies saying that they are doing things for the greater good of our environment and not profit. Tesla is another example, do you think he started that company to save the environment or for the $$$. I appreciate that you CB fish, but call it what it is, a business for profit. It's also great that hopefully one day you will be able to breed and sell every fish available in the trade and eliminate the need for wild caught. We definitely need to do something to help the ocean out, and this and land based coral farms are a great start.
 
Last edited:

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,559
Reaction score
21,787
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Hopefully I can provide a bit of insight and if I missed anything y'all want me to touch on please tag me. Obviously, much of what I'm saying from personal insight so some of my collegues within Biota may not agree but I'm also happy to ask any of them their opinions here too.


This actually has always been the case in Hawaii. If you are a scientific research facility you have been able to collect broodstock throughout the closure. Obviously it's heavily moderated because of the amount of people that would just sell them but the DLNR allows for scientific collection.

We actually were breeding yellow tang before the closure. There was no reason other than it is a popular fish for the aquarium trade and many people wanted a captive-bred alternative to wild caught and it would provide insight into other tang species. They were much more expensive that the wilds and we did sell every single one we produced because people care about the source of their animals. Obviously as the closure happened and now we've been playing catchup trying to meet the demand of the yellow tang. I'd like to think people are buying yellows from us because they care and not because it's one of the only available options.

Yes, Carbon footprint does have a factor especially when we have facilities in Hawaii, Palau, NC, and Florida but we also think about this heavily internally. If we're shipping 100 mandarins that are captive-bred and eating prepared diets that's hopefully 1000 mandarins that aren't taken out of the wild, shipped across the globe, and starving through the chain of custody. We'd have to be pretty oblivious not to realize that for every fish that shows up to the end user, there are many more that don't make it that far. Those that worked in wholesalers and pet stores can explain the significance but I can honestly say since working at Biota and seeing our shipping success from each of our facilities even through delays and weather and everything else it's ruined working anywhere that deals primarily with wild caught.

The real issue is when you breed a fish it doesn't pop out at a sellable size and that can vary by species. When purchasing a wild collected fish most of that cost is in the shipping because casting a net and getting hundreds of sellable fish doesn't take a ton of time but for me to sell a batch of yellow tang it's 4-6 months of growout which is rent, utilities, feeds, water quality, and tons of incredibly talented employees (ie expensive) to just sell the animal. If the stores or wholesalers had to hold every fish for 4-6 months their pricing would be impossible.

We have very strict biosecurity measures in place, but no aquaculture facility is 100% sterile. Our aquacultured fishes' immune systems get plenty of exercise; we actually do use some natural sea water at our breeding facilities. When they get to our Florida facility for distribution, we occasionally do see some evidence of infection, and our marine biologists diagnose and treat as needed. Some of our customers know that we sometimes delay orders because I run diagnostics on our fish daily, and if I find even the slightest speck of what might be something, I hold back orders and won't ship. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I'm embarassed to let you know the amount of time I eat ramen a week. We're working on it though and growing everyday but I can guarantee none of us are living a lavish lifestyle and every single employee I have at my Florida facility is with us because they're incredibly passionate about what we do and how we're changing the hobby.

Mentioned above that we do breed fish that are much cheaper in the aquarium trade and people purchase them because they do believe in making a difference in the hobby and the choices that make sense for their aquariums. People can find coral beauties, pink square anthias, court jesters, and many of our other fish for much cheaper and still choose to purchase from us. That must mean people care about the source of their pets or we're doing something right which I'm cool with both those options.

Pricing does sometimes go up for no reason in the hobby like with designer corals or new fad products but I think with fish it mostly stems to changes in policy, sourcing, and shipping. Obviously, everyone has talked about shipping the most the past 2 years since it's ballooned to unthinkable levels. Other changes are how the fish are collected (dynamite, cyanide, net training, overseeing certifications, equipment expenses, ect.) or quality of life changes for those collecting. Obviously, you want to sell the animals at the highest price as a fisherman and if someone is willing to pay more they are the ones that will get the fish, that might translate into a specific wholesaler having more diversity but also being more expensive.

If anyone asks me how to breed any of our fish I usually provide a breakdown. Obviously, there's IP involved but most poeple ask about the yellow tang. There's dozens of scientific papers on how to breed them and the real reason it isn't as abundant as clownfish breeding is because it's very expensive and very hard. We are also always improving and a ton of our cost is research to make things better and improve which in Hawaii is all publishable data. There's also a ton of great people in groups like MBI who are happy to help anyone with a breeding project. Many MACNA talks do have specific breakdowns on how to breed things and are occompanied by scientific published papers. I would love for someone to breed other tang like achilles, tomini, naso, etc. because I'm also a hobbyist and I want to buy them.

Yes, cost is significantly different by species because there are different spawning queues, frequency of spawns, success rates, grow-out times, live feeds timings, etc. The real question is why is a mocha helmet picasso snow shoes clown more expensive than a regular ocellaris when it's the same species?

Also with the cuban basslet vs royal gramma, yes they are similar to breed but there are some differences in raising them but I wouldn't say anywhere near a ton of them are being produced. That facility is only able to produce so many which is why they're limited and still expensive but much less expensive than $3000+ many years ago. I believe in the last 8 years we've had them go from $1200 to $800 and now $600.

Hopefully I provided some insight to these questions. Oh, obviously I'm on team "I only buy captive bred fish" because they're so much cooler and it's awesome to show people a tank and say nothing here is taken out of the wild.
I would have given you 'Heart' - except - I don't think it's all that awesome to say nothing is taken out of the wild. Is that really a thing?
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
22,559
Reaction score
21,787
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I hear you. Working with the same evidence everyone else has, I've concluded cyanide trapping happens. I've heard stories of cyanide to explain sudden fish death. And I'm not denying it, credible people with the means to autopsy fishes have confirmed. My understanding is that the only way to know for certain is to clip a fin and test it. How many people have the means to definitively rule in cyanide?

When it comes to cyanide trapping, my question is, does it happening more than we suspect? Or are those outliers that are used to stake an argument?

A buddy came and hung out yesterday and he needed an algae clip. The closest place to get that is petco, so we drove. Mind you, I haven't stepped foot in an lfs or petco in years. When I went to their saltwater section, I was amazed at how good the fish looked. They actually had some healthy looking fish, i was truly amazed. To validate your last paragraph we would have to assume petco has started carrying captive bred fish, because 90% of the fish that were in there fell under your criteria for fish selection.
The odd thing (to my understanding) about Petco - is that each store is managed by a person - and it's up to that person to be either an expert (or not) - in saltwater. Many Petcos have no saltwater section. There is a Petco near here - that has an outstanding manager, knows more about saltwater fish than I do - and has excellent reef tanks and products
 
Back
Top