CaRx / stability / growth

BOWHUNTER4250

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Ok , im going to try and explain this the best i can and hopefully it makes enough sense for some better understanding :

I have a DD300 and it is SPS Dominant ............I run my CaRx thru my Apex currently so yes i use a PH probe in the top , it is currently set to 6.78 to 6.68 and on ( solenoid ) when HIGH , this keeps my Alk at 8.0 / 8.1 ...... now i check my Alk every single day , ( yes i know this is excessive but im trying to figure out what is happening ? ) if my Alk goes down i raise my numbers a bit to add more saturated Alk , if my ALK goes up for some reason i will adjust my numbers a bit to lower it back down ... now my effluant is a steady stream controlled by a dial not just a valve . i use about a #10 can of Co2 every few months and i am getting growth on my sticks but it is slow and mostly encrusting .

Now i check the Alk of my Effluant and it is only at 9.4 , i have read and heard that Effluant should be around 25 ? with this combination of my Effluant Alk and my tank ALk could this possibly be slowing down the growth at all ?? now i know the questions will come as far as what are the other parameters bla bla bla .... those are good , i know my CaRx is not " properly tuned " so to speak but on the flip side does it really matter how this is set up or how its running as long as my Alk is stable ??

If this could be a contributing factor how can i " TUNE " this so i dont get huge swings of up or down and shock my sticks ??

Hopefully you can get an idea and throw some insight ... Thanks much
 

dadnjesse

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If the Effluent coming out is really 9.4 Dkh, it is not breaking down the media enough. It should be at least 20 Dkh. Doesn't sound like your tank is using much alkalinity.
 

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Have you tried to recalibrate your PH probe? Maybe even with a different brand or batch of calibration solution?
 
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BOWHUNTER4250

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If the Effluent coming out is really 9.4 Dkh, it is not breaking down the media enough. It should be at least 20 Dkh. Doesn't sound like your tank is using much alkalinity.

Correct , currently my tank is not using that much Alk. in turn = no growth or very slow growth
again does it really matter how fast the media is being broken down as long as things are stable ??
 

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If your reactor effluent alkalinity is steady and your tank alkalinity is steady you are tuned fine. If the effluent alkalinity is higher than your tank alkalinity, the reactor is adding alkalinity to the tank. The steady tank alkalinity is the most important part.

Saturated calcium reactor effluent is ~ 40dKH, so anything less than this however, is inefficient use of CO2. This inefficiency causes an increase in CO2 use and tank refills, and, causes an excessive decrease of tank ph. The closer you can get to 40dKH on reactor effluent, the higher your tank ph will be, because less CO2 will be escaping to the tank. Have you checked your tank pH? If so, what is the value?

You can accomplish a higher effluent dKH by decreasing your reactor effluent flow rate whilst decreasing the pH controller setpoint.

Let me know what questions you have.
 

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Correct , currently my tank is not using that much Alk. in turn = no growth or very slow growth
again does it really matter how fast the media is being broken down as long as things are stable ??

This is 100% correct. What is your tank ph? If it is low, this could be contributing to slow coral growth. Also what test kit are you using for alkalinity?
 

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What media are you using? Carib sea doesn't work until you get your ph to 6.2 in your reactor. At least what I found
 
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BOWHUNTER4250

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This is 100% correct. What is your tank ph? If it is low, this could be contributing to slow coral growth. Also what test kit are you using for alkalinity?

Tank PH is at 7.8 at night and 8.0 day with A/C on .... windows open and PH jumps to 8.2 , i use the Hanna Alk checker , current probes have been re calibrated , Now i do have a basement sump and i have tried using media to raise PH however this changes color within a day and it would cost me a small fortune to keep using that media .. i run my Skimmer intake lines thru a pipe that draws outside air in . So your saying that if i raise my effluant , de crease the flow rate to the display , in turn this should raise the overall Ph of the display resulting in better growth ?? in lamens terms ?
 

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Tank PH is at 7.8 at night and 8.0 day with A/C on .... windows open and PH jumps to 8.2 , i use the Hanna Alk checker , current probes have been re calibrated , Now i do have a basement sump and i have tried using media to raise PH however this changes color within a day and it would cost me a small fortune to keep using that media .. i run my Skimmer intake lines thru a pipe that draws outside air in . So your saying that if i raise my effluant , de crease the flow rate to the display , in turn this should raise the overall Ph of the display resulting in better growth ?? in lamens terms ?

Yes, that it correct. However, your current pH 7.8-8.0 is awesome. I probably wouldn't change anything at this point. As your alkalinity consumption increases, the additional CO2 that will be pumped into the reactor (needed to dissolve additional media) might have a bigger impact on pH. If you do make the adjustment now, I would make them in small increments. Adjust down effluent flow rate slightly one day, and increase CO2 bubble count slightly the next. Test alkalinity 24 hours after each adjustment just to make sure that there are no big swings. Once you are at a 25 - 35 dKH, AND your tank alkalinity is stable, you are at steady state.

Everything from this point should be VERY easy. Just increase your effluent flow rate to increase alkalinity dosing from your reactor. The pH controller should handle the rest. At some point, you will hit the ceiling of your CO2 flow rate (limited to how open the CO2 regulator valve). You will know you are at this point when you increase effluent flow AND alkalinity starts to drop off AND your CO2 solenoid valve is open 100% of the time. When this happens, just open the CO2 regulator valve a little bit, and you should be good to go.
 
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BOWHUNTER4250

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Yes, that it correct. However, your current pH 7.8-8.0 is awesome. I probably wouldn't change anything at this point. As your alkalinity consumption increases, the additional CO2 that will be pumped into the reactor (needed to dissolve additional media) might have a bigger impact on pH. If you do make the adjustment now, I would make them in small increments. Adjust down effluent flow rate slightly one day, and increase CO2 bubble count slightly the next. Test alkalinity 24 hours after each adjustment just to make sure that there are no big swings. Once you are at a 25 - 35 dKH, AND your tank alkalinity is stable, you are at steady state.

Everything from this point should be VERY easy. Just increase your effluent flow rate to increase alkalinity dosing from your reactor. The pH controller should handle the rest. At some point, you will hit the ceiling of your CO2 flow rate (limited to how open the CO2 regulator valve). You will know you are at this point when you increase effluent flow AND alkalinity starts to drop off AND your CO2 solenoid valve is open 100% of the time. When this happens, just open the CO2 regulator valve a little bit, and you should be good to go.

Cool ! i appreciate the help .... Now i have always heard that you want to try and have as high ( within reason ) of a steady PH as possible say anywhere from 8.2-8.4 ?? ..... now i am using My Apex to raise / lower the Ph in my reactor with the numbers i am using , now i can lower those numbers today and my ALk will be higher tomorrow , so lets say my numbers are currently 6.78 / 6.68 and my Alk is 8.0 if i change those numbers to 6.76 / 6.66 when i get home 24 hours later my Alk will be at 8.1 maybe 8.2 and the same if i go the other direction with my numbers ?

So using that how would i re adjust my effluant / bubbles or dosent the numbers really matter as long as im dissolving media ?
 

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Cool ! i appreciate the help .... Now i have always heard that you want to try and have as high ( within reason ) of a steady PH as possible say anywhere from 8.2-8.4 ?? .....

Definitely best (and not the norm for most I would imagine).

now i am using My Apex to raise / lower the Ph in my reactor with the numbers i am using , now i can lower those numbers today and my ALk will be higher tomorrow , so lets say my numbers are currently 6.78 / 6.68 and my Alk is 8.0 if i change those numbers to 6.76 / 6.66 when i get home 24 hours later my Alk will be at 8.1 maybe 8.2 and the same if i go the other direction with my numbers ?

That is correct, which is why you want to adjust your alkalinity pH controller setpoint lower, in conjunction with lowering your effluent flow rate. Lowering the pH setpoint on the controller will increase your effluent alkalinity (and consequently increase alkalinity dosed to the system). When you lower the effluent flow rate, you will be lowering the alkalinity dosed to the system through two mechanisms. Less of the high alkalinity effluent is reaching the system, and your pH controller will not need to dose as much CO2 to achieve the same pH setpoint inside the reactor. Your net result will be an increased effluent alkalinity (25-35 dKH), and a constant alkalinity level in the aquarium.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a calculation available to tell you what the pH and effluent flow rate needs to be in order to achieve this. It will simply be playing with the two parameters until you hit the sweet spot. Good news is that once your are there, you won't have to do it again.

Not that it matters, but I complete this evolution every time I adjust my calcium reactor, as I do not use a pH controller to run it. :)

So using that how would i re adjust my effluant / bubbles or dosent the numbers really matter as long as im dissolving media ?

Truly, if your tank pH is good (which it is), and your alkalinity is constant (which it is), there is no need to make changes now.

Later down the road as your alkalinity consumption reaches an appreciable level, it will likely be necessary to go through the evolution above.
 
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BOWHUNTER4250

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Definitely best (and not the norm for most I would imagine).



That is correct, which is why you want to adjust your alkalinity pH controller setpoint lower, in conjunction with lowering your effluent flow rate. Lowering the pH setpoint on the controller will increase your effluent alkalinity (and consequently increase alkalinity dosed to the system). When you lower the effluent flow rate, you will be lowering the alkalinity dosed to the system through two mechanisms. Less of the high alkalinity effluent is reaching the system, and your pH controller will not need to dose as much CO2 to achieve the same pH setpoint inside the reactor. Your net result will be an increased effluent alkalinity (25-35 dKH), and a constant alkalinity level in the aquarium.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a calculation available to tell you what the pH and effluent flow rate needs to be in order to achieve this. It will simply be playing with the two parameters until you hit the sweet spot. Good news is that once your are there, you won't have to do it again.

Not that it matters, but I complete this evolution every time I adjust my calcium reactor, as I do not use a pH controller to run it. :)



Truly, if your tank pH is good (which it is), and your alkalinity is constant (which it is), there is no need to make changes now.

Later down the road as your alkalinity consumption reaches an appreciable level, it will likely be necessary to go through the evolution above.

Thank you for all the information and the time i greatly appreciate it ... i will close my valve a little to decrease the amount delivered and lower my numbers and go from there .... Thank again dude !
 

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Thank you for all the information and the time i greatly appreciate it ... i will close my valve a little to decrease the amount delivered and lower my numbers and go from there .... Thank again dude !
You're welcome, I'm happy to help. I'll keep my eye on the thread if you have any more questions.
 
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BOWHUNTER4250

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You're welcome, I'm happy to help. I'll keep my eye on the thread if you have any more questions.

So last night i closed my effluent valve ( gate style ) by 1-1/2 turns , it was open 3-1/2 turns ,and lowered my Apex numbers by 2 , now after doing this about an hour and half later i noticed that my solenoid had not shut off at all in that time where as before it would go on for about 15 min. and off for about 11 min. so i upped my bubble count slightly and it is now cycling about the same as before ?

Prior to adjustment my display Alk at 5:30 was @ 8.1, made the adjustments and re checked this morning just to see the direction it was going and the display Alk was @ 8.0 ........ so hopefully im going in the right direction ?? Im assuming just by making those adjustments the Effluant Alk is slightly higher ?? Now i will re check display Alk tonight , assuming display is stable ( 8.0 - 8.1 or so ) i can do the same thing again and that should increase the Effluant even more correct ?
 

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Now i have always heard that you want to try and have as high ( within reason ) of a steady PH as possible say anywhere from 8.2-8.4 ??

I don't think this is a reasonable goal. In general, the closer to 8.2 - 8.3, the better, but for some aquarists this is almost impossible to achieve within reason. As you have seen, remediating high CO2 is not an easy task. The reefers who have lower pH around 8.0 are still very successful and have plenty of coral growth.

You could try installing a really large air pump that draws outside air and bubbles it into your sump. You could also set up a dosing pump to dose saturated limewater every hour. If you felt like spending some money, you could also install a HRV or ERV to reduce the overall CO2 levels in your house.
 
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I don't think this is a reasonable goal. In general, the closer to 8.2 - 8.3, the better, but for some aquarists this is almost impossible to achieve within reason. As you have seen, remediating high CO2 is not an easy task. The reefers who have lower pH around 8.0 are still very successful and have plenty of coral growth.

You could try installing a really large air pump that draws outside air and bubbles it into your sump. You could also set up a dosing pump to dose saturated limewater every hour. If you felt like spending some money, you could also install a HRV or ERV to reduce the overall CO2 levels in your house.

Yes you are correct and Ph isnt something i want to chase but if i can keep it higher and steady then im sure it will only add to better health overall ?

I was dosing Kalkwasser thru a dosing pump and for whatever reason every time i made a new batch of this ( used a 5 gallon bucket ) i would have to re adjust my numbers again because my ALk would change frequently for a few days so i stopped using the Kalk. And its funny you mention the HRV/ERV
a few years ago i actually purchased a Air ex changer when i had a new A/C and furnace put in but due to other variables it was never installed , when i finish my basement it will go in at that point .
 

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Yes you are correct and Ph isnt something i want to chase but if i can keep it higher and steady then im sure it will only add to better health overall ?

It will probably increase calcification, but by how much and at what cost? If you really want to control pH, not just elevate it, you'll need a pH controller like an Apex, you'll need a lot of soda lime, and you'll need a solenoid/valve that will allow your controller to run air through the soda lime only when the pH is low and shut it off when the pH is at a given level. This is a lot of work and pretty expensive.

There's also no way to know how much benefit you'll get from all the work. The anecdotal evidence appears to be that corals calcify faster at higher pH ranges, and our understanding of calcification backs that up. We don't, however, know exactly how much elevated pH will increase calcification. It will probably help, but we can't say definitely by how much. We also know that corals grow fine at low pH. Since there are no exact data on how much calcification will increase and we know that corals do fine at your current pH, I say it's not worth it.

I also think as a hobby we need to get away from "don't chase numbers" as advice. There's no doubt that people cause harm to their tanks by dosing when they don't know what they're doing. There's also no doubt that reef aquaria couldn't exist if we didn't chase certain numbers like salinity, temperature, flow, light intensity, etc. "Don't chase numbers" often seems like a means to an end for hobbyists to be lazy and avoid testing and dosing. Endeavoring to reduce the variability in certain key parameters will likely only benefit reef aquaria. This assumes, however, that it is possible to alter the parameter, that it is possible to control over the parameter within a given range, and that the target value range is realistic given the context.
 
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BOWHUNTER4250

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It will probably increase calcification, but by how much and at what cost? If you really want to control pH, not just elevate it, you'll need a pH controller like an Apex, you'll need a lot of soda lime, and you'll need a solenoid/valve that will allow your controller to run air through the soda lime only when the pH is low and shut it off when the pH is at a given level. This is a lot of work and pretty expensive.

There's also no way to know how much benefit you'll get from all the work. The anecdotal evidence appears to be that corals calcify faster at higher pH ranges, and our understanding of calcification backs that up. We don't, however, know exactly how much elevated pH will increase calcification. It will probably help, but we can't say definitely by how much. We also know that corals grow fine at low pH. Since there are no exact data on how much calcification will increase and we know that corals do fine at your current pH, I say it's not worth it.

I also think as a hobby we need to get away from "don't chase numbers" as advice. There's no doubt that people cause harm to their tanks by dosing when they don't know what they're doing. There's also no doubt that reef aquaria couldn't exist if we didn't chase certain numbers like salinity, temperature, flow, light intensity, etc. "Don't chase numbers" often seems like a means to an end for hobbyists to be lazy and avoid testing and dosing. Endeavoring to reduce the variability in certain key parameters will likely only benefit reef aquaria. This assumes, however, that it is possible to alter the parameter, that it is possible to control over the parameter within a given range, and that the target value range is realistic given the context.

ABSOLUTELY 100% correct ! I have been in this hobby long enough and have had enough ups and downs , lost thousands of dollars over the years from mistakes and " over reacting " I must say that so far this is the most success ive had with keeping my SPS and want to keep going in the right direction and get them happier !

Thank you for all the input
 

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