Chaeto Reactors compared to Algae Scrubbers

[SantaMonica]

I don't understand where ulva "comes from" for all of you people if it didn't exist in the tank prior to the scrubber

All types of algal cells are in all aquarium water already, in small amounts. Just like your body has cells of disease bacteria and viruses already, in small amounts. Given the right conditions, the cells take over.

The reason you have to seed chaeto is because the cells are a less-progressive specices than GHA cells, and thus get out-competed by the GHA, sometimes even inside a chaeto reactor. So conditions (such as seeding) must occur for chaeto to grow beyond a few cells.

GHA cells even blow in from the wind, and can "seed" a batch of RODI water or even 18 megohm lab water in the desert. You even have algal cells in your eye. But corals etc have billions of the cells per square cm.

I do think it's helpful to state that the chaeto can be overheated pretty easily

Most all algae can. They just don't need to be able to survive in warm or hot water in the wild. Cold yes, hot no.

are we talking about purely which algae grows faster in any conditions?

Not so much the algae, but the device.

How is a scrubbers uptake when the screen is cleaned? Clearly it will not have the same export at that time

Correct, a strong scrubber should have split (or triple) screens. Or else run 2 or 3 scrubbers.

Then we have to ask, does it even really matter?

It matters when you have to choose one or the other. Most people have to. And as tank size decreases, the differences increase.

 

[atoll]

Just a point regarding screen cleaning and nutrients. Like many I clean my screen weekly and trim my Ulva etc back quite severely. I do not find that by doing so there is a rapid rise in nutrients within this short period in fact it seems to encourage the algae to regrow quickly taking up nutrients as it does so.

 

[fishbox]

What's your thoughts on this guys/gals? This guy added a screen to algae reactor in an attempt to use it as an algae scrubber.

 

[Orm Embar]

What's your thoughts on this guys/gals? This guy added a screen to algae reactor in an attempt to use it as an algae scrubber.

It's hard for me to see if it's mixing air/water (on phone), but it's all good-macroalgae (fast growing) + lighting = nutrient exporting (or sequestration for later exporting if you want to be technical).

 

[SantaMonica]

It's just water inside; it will not grow much or at all without air being involved, either as a waterfall or and bubble upflow.

 

[fishbox]

It's just water inside; it will not grow much or at all without air being involved, either as a waterfall or and bubble upflow.

It's hard for me to see if it's mixing air/water (on phone), but it's all good-macroalgae (fast growing) + lighting = nutrient exporting (or sequestration for later exporting if you want to be technical).

That's what I was thinking. He needs to inject air into it somehow. It looks like a TLF reactor. I have one laying around that I was gonna turn into a cheato reactor but I'm wondering if doing something like this would work as an ATS (if done properly of course). I was thinking he could add a venturi to the pump. The water input on these is on top and flows down to the bottom of the device through a pipe in the center. From there the water is pushed up through the rest of the device to the top. So the bubbles would travel up the screen

 

[TbyZ]

That's what I was thinking. He needs to inject air into it somehow. It looks like a TLF reactor. I have one laying around that I was gonna turn into a cheato reactor but I'm wondering if doing something like this would work as an ATS (if done properly of course). I was thinking he could add a venturi to the pump. The water input on these is on top and flows down to the bottom of the device through a pipe in the center. From there the water is pushed up through the rest of the device to the top. So the bubbles would travel up the screen

Why not just use a scrubber?

 

[fishbox]

Why not just use a scrubber?

I guess it's just one of those I wonder if it'll work type deals. I already have the reactor. So it would actually be easier to just make the algae reactor. But how hard would it be to slap some Screen on this and add some air

 

[atoll]

Why not just use a scrubber?

Might be a matter of space, what you can fit in and where.

 

[Southpawzzz]

This threads is getting old and santa monica only posted the "facts" 1 time where is more info this thread is on a thread... so when will you tell us more santa monica

 

[SantaMonica]

Chaeto Reactors compared to Algae Scrubbers, part 2

By Santa Monica Filtration

Now for some basic differences; more detailed differences will be in subsequent posts.

The first and maybe most important difference is that chaeto reactors grow only in saltwater (fish only, or fish with live rock, or reef) whereas algae scrubbers grow (filter) in both saltwater and freshwater. Growing = filtering. But even if you are exclusively freshwater, understanding the differences between reactors and scrubbers enables you to optimize a system for your tank. There have not been any experiments of chaeto in brackish water however.

A second difference is size; a chaeto reactor needs to be much larger than an algae scrubber. Many saltwater tanks have large sumps, and even dedicated fish rooms, so this may not be an issue. Through experiential results of individual aquarists running chaeto reactors over the last few years, and through many thousands of aquarists running algae scrubbers over the last ten years, it has been observed that a chaeto reactor needs to be 4 to 8 times the physical size of an algae scrubber to provide the same rate of filtering capacity (rate of nutrient removal).

A third difference is seeding; a chaeto reactor needs to be seeded with a small amount of chaeto, either from another aquarium, reactor, or from your last harvest (i.e., you don’t harvest all of it), whereas an algae scrubber will self-seed from invisible algal cells in the water. When self-seeding, algae scrubbers usually start out with a slime type of growth, and this sometimes progresses on to a green hair algae growth, depending on the nutrients in the water.

A fourth difference is in how you clean (harvest). For a chaeto reactor, you disassemble the reactor usually by unscrewing several screws on the top of the container, and then by pulling out a tube or frame from the container; the chaeto growth is then removed from the frame and the frame is replaced back into the container, and the lid and screws are put back into place. Since chaeto does not attach to a surface, you often get broken chaeto pieces that flow into your tank or sump when you harvest; a filter screen in the reactor can reduce this.

For an algae scrubber, cleaning (harvesting) varies on what design it is; freshwater versions will usually be taken to a sink for the cleaning because of the thin and slimy growth (saltwater versions can also be cleaned in a sink, but are sometimes harvested in-place). A horizontal river design will have a light that you lift up off of the container, and a screen that you remove from the container. A waterfall design will have a screen that you remove from a pipe; sometimes the whole pipe is removed, and sometimes the pipe is in a container that you need to open first. A bubble upflow design has at least part of the container under water, which you lift out of the water. And for all algae scrubbers, since the growth is attached to a surface, broken floating algae pieces are not common when you harvest on a proper schedule. Bubble upflow scrubbers almost never detach because the growth is supported by the water.

A fifth difference is fish feeding; by feeding your fish from the growth, the fish eat naturally and you don’t have to buy and add food to the water (which creates nutrients). Very few if any aquarium animals eat chaeto, so the only option is to remove the chaeto and either throw it away or give it to a friend. For algae scrubbers, it depends on the growth: Slime (although full of absorbed nutrients from the water) is usually not eaten by aquarium fish and thus is scraped off and thrown away or used as garden fertilizer. Green hair algae however is eaten by almost all herbivore fish and many snails (it’s their nature food), and thus some of the growth can be fed back to the fish, especially in freshwater where algae scrubbers almost always grow this type of growth.

A sixth difference is overgrowth of algae on the lights. Chaeto reactors usually have a large surface area light (such as a long coiled light strip), and the illumination from these is not enough to “burn” off algae growth on the surface of the clear wall (this growth reduces illumination output). So you will need to clean these glass surfaces in order to keep the illumination at full output. Most algae scrubbers however use discrete (separate) high power LEDs which produce enough illumination in a small space to burn off algal growth on glass surfaces; for these you do not need to wipe the growth off because it does not grow there.

A last difference is overgrowth of algae on the algae itself. Chaeto is a slow growing species of algae because of it’s thick cellular structure, and if conditions favor faster growing algae you will get green hair algae which attaches on top of the chaeto, causing the chaeto to be blocked from light and flow, and eventually causing the chaeto to die and rot. There is no easy way to wipe green hair algae from chaeto; the chaeto must just be harvested earlier instead. For algae scrubbers, green hair algal growth on top of more green hair growth is how scrubbers operate in the first place, so earlier harvesting is not needed.

 

[Mortie31]

They both work, but differently and each have a place. I'm sorry but this last post was so desperate... just a manufacturer defending his products...

 

[40B Knasty]

Here is my cheato reactor made out of Seaclone Protein Skimmer. It has an air valve and you can see in the tornado affect at the bottom there is some air flow, but not to much and not by choice. Just what I had to work with for a DIY project. It has been amazing for phosphates. Down to an undetectable amount of zero in a matter of 3 days. It was way up there before. Even up a little with just using Phosguard.
If I incorporate the idea of the knitting mesh or take the cylinder that is down the middle inside the reactor where the cheato is stuffed down in and drilled a ton of holes in it. I think it would work as a turf scrubber. I would just be afraid to crack the cylinder. Thoughts on what would be better?

 

[SantaMonica]

Nice to see it working. Putting screen or holes in it would not really change much, without an air/water interface. And if you did have this interface, green hair algae would grow on on top of your chaeto and eventually choke it out.

 

[40B Knasty]

Nice to see it working. Putting screen or holes in it would not really change much, without an air/water interface. And if you did have this interface, green hair algae would grow on on top of your chaeto and eventually choke it out.

Agreed, I don't want any more air to flow up the chamber, because the cheato needs CO² and I have a feeling it would just turn the cheato into mush choking it out that way also.

 

[SantaMonica]

BTW if anyone would like the see the background of why an air/water interface maximizes nutrient transfer into algae, you can read Dynamic Aquaria by Walter Adey.

 

[Newb73]

I have not once seen green hair algae on top of my fast growing chaeto.

My skimmer section feeds the chaeto section, so it's getting 100% 02 saturation.

Nothing against any of these export modes though.

 

[SantaMonica]

You don't want O2 saturation. Algae slows down in O2. Algae need CO2 to grow.

Also, for fun, put some air bubbles under your chaeto.

 

[Newb73]

You don't want O2 saturation. Algae slows down in O2. Algae need CO2 to grow.

Also, for fun, put some air bubbles under your chaeto.

Well im sure not going to pump C02 into my tank.

We will see if the propane gas logs i run in the winter accelerate chaeto growth (it sure as heck drops the PH).