Chaeto Test Part III: We've proven it works, now time to up the game! | BRStv Investigates

[SantaMonica]

Keep in mind w/c only reduce 20% of what's in the water that minute. It's does nothing the next hour, or next day or week. Also, water is mostly just a carrier of nutrients; as the 20% comes out, more comes out of the rocks etc to fill the water back up.

So I think the point is that a continuous removal of nutrients 24/7, especially algae which consumes only nutrients and only when needed, is more effective. And this can be with the Triton costs, or without as in plain algae harvesting.

 

[johndoe]

@Ryanbrs i dont konw if i missed it but did you ever say what size the fuge you ran on the 160

 

[Richards_reef]

Want another option with a fuge light? Last year I used a cree cxa3070 6k running at around 20 watts. The spectrum seemed perfect, but it was so powerful I ran my 150 gallon system out of phosphates and nitrates, so the algae ended up dieing off after several months of phenomenal growth.

Before making the diy cxa3070 light I used CFLs for about 6 months and kessil h150m for another 6 months. The CFLs didn't seem to light the fuge enough and the kessil kept bleaching my chaetomorpha.

Since then I have downgraded my display to a 75 gallon tank. For export I have an oversized protein skimmer (bubble king mini 180), I filled my now unlit fuge with dry rock, I alternate between 14 and 32 gallon water changes weekly including vacuuming half of my sand bed (5inches deep) every other week. After my water changes I use filter socks or filter floss for a day or two (no mechanical filtration the rest of the week). I use carbon at most 1 week a month in a reactor. It may seem like a lot of work but It honestly takes less than a half hour of work every week. My nitrates and phosphates have been near zero since I transfered the tank 6 months ago.

For feeding I do 1-2 cubes a day of frozen food, plus additions of coral foods several times a week, and a sheet of Nori every other day. Maybe once a week I fast my tank for a day on average.

Sorry for having such a long post for only wanting to give another option on a diy light. I just wanted to give background on my experiences.

 

[marcballz]

So what else is chateo pulling out besides the known nitrate & phosphates, such as trace minerals? With a quality light & that much growth i imagine it would be absorbing other elements requiring you to dose something else extra. For example Mangrove trees consume magnesium quite fast & when the magnesium levels are low the Mangrove becomes stressed and its leaves shrivel up and yellow out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So what else is chateo pulling out besides the known nitrate & phosphates, such as trace minerals?

Everything, including ammonia and all (or nearly all) trace elements. Iron can be a limiting growth factor for photosynthetic organisms in the ocean, and is why many people growing macroalgae dose it.

As an aside, I'm not convinced that most mangroves have any special requirements for magnesium nor that they consume all that much. Scientific data I have seen suggest that most mangrove species grow fine in brackish water (which has inherently less magnesium than seawater) and do not accumulate all that much magnesium in their leaves (see Table 5 in this link for magnesium content):

https://books.google.com/books?id=opnuCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=magnesium+requirement+of+mangroves&source=bl&ots=69EewNaJHn&sig=cY87JDzfuX3W1ixOEidh--dBbiY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG-IS1oZPWAhVKNSYKHUyyDN0Q6AEIVzAI#v=onepage&q=magnesium requirement of mangroves&f=false

From the data here, to deplete magnesium from 1300 mg/L to 1250 mg/L in a 100 gallon aquarium (18,900 mg or 778 mmoles of magnesium) using the mangroves with the highest magnesium content, would require new growth of 1.6 kilograms (dry weight, = many kilograms of wet weight) of mangrove leaves.

 

[SantaMonica]

So what else is chateo pulling out besides the known nitrate & phosphates, such as trace minerals

Macroalgae actually put the trace elements into the water. That's how the elements get there in natural oceans and reefs. Here is some info:

What does algae put into water?

Vitamins:

Vitamin A
Vitamin E
Vitamin B6
Beta Carotene
Riboflavin
Thiamine
Biotin
Ascorbate (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia)
N5-Methyltetrahydrofolate
Other tetrahydrofolate polyglutamates
Oxidized folate monoglutamates
Nicotinate
Pantothenate


Amino Acids:

Alanine
Aspartic acid
Leucine
Valine
Tyrosine
Phenylalanine
Methionine
Aspartate
Glutamate
Serine
Proline


Carbohydrates (sugars):

Galactose
Glucose
Maltose
Xylose



Misc:

Glycolic Acid
Citric Acid (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia)
Nucleic Acid derivatives
Polypeptides
Proteins
Enzymes
Lipids

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Macroalgae actually put the trace elements into the water. That's how the elements get there in natural oceans and reefs. Here is some info:

What does algae put into water?

Vitamins:

Vitamin A
Vitamin E
Vitamin B6
Beta Carotene
Riboflavin
Thiamine
Biotin
Ascorbate (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia)
N5-Methyltetrahydrofolate
Other tetrahydrofolate polyglutamates
Oxidized folate monoglutamates
Nicotinate
Pantothenate


Amino Acids:

Alanine
Aspartic acid
Leucine
Valine
Tyrosine
Phenylalanine
Methionine
Aspartate
Glutamate
Serine
Proline


Carbohydrates (sugars):

Galactose
Glucose
Maltose
Xylose



Misc:

Glycolic Acid
Citric Acid (breaks chloramines into chlorine+ammonia)
Nucleic Acid derivatives
Polypeptides
Proteins
Enzymes
Lipids

Just to clarify, none of the things you mention are trace elements (all are organic molecules), and macroalgae most definitely are not net sources of trace elements (iron, cobalt, uranium, etc.). They'd have to be alchemists to make elements from nothing.

 

[Clownfish2]

Hey guys,

FINALLY! We've made it to the next update for the Chaetomorpha test! These results are pretty interesting and what we're going to do next is worth the wait!

Let us know your thoughts on the test and the future test plans!

Hey guys,

FINALLY! We've made it to the next update for the Chaetomorpha test! These results are pretty interesting and what we're going to do next is worth the wait!

Let us know your thoughts on the test and the future test plans!

Randy, I have enjoyed the Chaeto test videos. Keep it up! I ended up purchasing the H380 for my refugium, but unfortunately I haven't had similar results like the BRS160. In 2 weeks using the H380 for 13 hours per day, my chaetomorpha has only increased 6.4 % in size from 78 grams to 83 grams. Some of that growth, I had to reduce because the strands turned white and died. Green hair algae also began growing on the refugium walls. In the display tank, the traces of cyano on the sand surface has disappeared, however, I'm not sure if this is due to the H380 yet. After noticing the small chaeto growth, I reduced the H380 hours from 13 to 8 hours per day.

Here are my tank specs:
Tank is 11 months old
110 gallon with a emerald 34 sump
two radion G4 XR15
reef octopus 150sss skimmer
MP40 vortech
2 jebao powerheads

Water parameters:
salinity 1.025, temp 78, PH 8.0-8.1, alk 10, nitrate 0, phosphate 0, calcium 450, mag 1380

livestock:
8 fish (clowns, damsels, firefish, royal gramma, and a wrasse)
2 shrimp, 2 crabs, 4 snails, sea urchin
10 corals

feeding: at least 1x per day, enough pellets the fish can eat up in a few seconds. Feed the corals reef chili 2x week.

Maintenance:
35 gallon water change 1x a month with the BRS RODI
Protein Skimmer - recently took 13 days to reach full before needing to empty.

I'm beginning to think my 110 tank is less stocked and fed less than the BRS160. Perhaps my current tank stocking only needs a refugium OR a protein skimmer, not both? Any suggestions? Or maybe this is a good reason to go buy more fish!

As a side experiment, I wanted to test chaeto as it relates to PH and growth in stagnant old copepod water using cheap low wattage light in empty BRS 1 gallon plastic jugs. Interestingly, the chaeto grew 28.5% in 3 weeks sitting in stagnant old water void of copepods in front of a 4 watt LED strip at 6,000K. The PH was higher than my display tank at 8.4

 

[SantaMonica]

Yes I mention them as "trace" because most reefers buy and dose amino's, vitamin C, etc and think of them as trace.

 

[ReefingwithO]

Can you guys do one more test before you take these systems down. Cheato vs Caluerpa, which exports more nutrients

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you guys do one more test before you take these systems down. Cheato vs Caluerpa, which exports more nutrients

IME, caulerpa racemosa will outcompete chaeto in most refugia, but that wouldn't make me pick it over chaeto in a future aquarium. It is just such a terrible pest if it gets into the main tank. Only something like a foxface can keep it under control. In my case, even taking the whole tank down and scrubbing every surface did not get rid of it as it eventually grew back from crevices.

 

[ReefingwithO]

IME, caulerpa racemosa will outcompete chaeto in most refugia, but that wouldn't make me pick it over chaeto in a future aquarium. It is just such a terrible pest if it gets into the main tank. Only something like a foxface can keep it under control. In my case, even taking the whole tank down and scrubbing every surface did not get rid of it as it eventually grew back from crevices.

Ahh.

I have a few stands growing in my sump and I though to let it grow because it's different or better. I tried to get rid of it a while ago out of the sump but every now and again I see it pop up again.

I've heard that if you light it 24/7 it will stop it from going asexual. Is this true?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ahh.

I have a few stands growing in my sump and I though to let it grow because it's different or better. I tried to get rid of it a while ago out of the sump but every now and again I see it pop up again.

I've heard that if you light it 24/7 it will stop it from going asexual. Is this true?

IMO, the whole issue of sporulation is blown out of proportion. I've been following reef forums for more than 20 years, reading many hundreds of thousands of posts, and I have never read a first hand experience where that was a true problem.

In my tank, the normal caulerpa racemosa never sporulated, regardless of the lighting schedule (I used many over the years) A variant I had (caulerpa racemosa peltata) did sporulate periodically and a section of it typically died back after doing so. I never detected any issue when it did that and I expect all it did was feed some filter feeders.

 

[dangros]

I did not see significant pH changes when running my fuge opposite my DT. SO, I decided to run the fuge light 24/7. I'm using a single Kessil 360WE in the fuge and running 2 Mitras LX7's on the DT which can max out @ 190 watts ea. Maybe the power difference is why... but in any case, I'm curious if others experience the same thing.
p.s.
@Randy Holmes-Farley are you going to get another tank any time soon? Should we start a Randy Tank Fund?

 

[ReefingwithO]

Hey @Randy Holmes-Farley - what do you think of using Caulerpa taxifolia in my refugium compared to caulerpa racemosa? I'm sure taxifolia is the one growing in my sump. I would definitely remove it if you think racemosa is better.

I have a foxface and tang in the display tank so I'm not worried about it tanking hold there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey @Randy Holmes-Farley - what do you think of using Caulerpa taxifolia in my refugium compared to caulerpa racemosa? I'm sure taxifolia is the one growing in my sump. I would definitely remove it if you think racemosa is better.

I have a foxface and tang in the display tank so I'm not worried about it tanking hold there.

I don't know the relative merits of the different caulerpa species in a refugium. You could always add some racemosa to the taxiflolia just let them fight it out and see who wins.

 

[ReefingwithO]

I don't know the relative merits of the different caulerpa species in a refugium. You could always add some racemosa to the taxiflolia just let them fight it out and see who wins.

Sounds like a plan. For now I'll let the taxiflolia grow, if I get some hands on some racemosa I'll add it.

 

[Bronx19]

I've been using Caulerpa brachypus in my sump for a week now. I'm using an 80w grow bulb off ebay and a little clip on lamp. I'm using this as a test bed before I upgrade to a larger system soon. I have taken all means of filtration off line. Almost immediately I have noticed my SPS have come to life. Polyp extension is much better, they are growing nightly. My nitrates were at 30 and my PO4 at 0.06. I'll test again tomorrow, but the results thus far have been great.

I'm starting to feel that running a large, natural nutrient sink like this is the way to go in the future. I've tried the carbon and the GFO, they work, but they are are PITA to replace, they're expensive and worst of all, they're dangerous if over done.

 

[SantaMonica]

Yes there is probably much more food particles in the water now.

 

[joeyhatch11]

400 GPH pump not 400WATTS!!!! lol