Chances a leather coral can kill fish?

fishski13

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So recently I began to get into mushrooms and now leathers. I know leather have toxins within them that can harm other corals. I was wondering what the chances are that a leather can kill fish with there toxins? Was wondering if anyone has any inputs particular on neptheas and toadstools.
 

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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So recently I began to get into mushrooms and now leathers. I know leather have toxins within them that can harm other corals. I was wondering what the chances are that a leather can kill fish with there toxins? Was wondering if anyone has any inputs particular on neptheas and toadstools.
No
 

Jeffbear

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Up until recently I was in the No category as well. However I lost a young Clownfish to mysterious circumstances that point to possible toxins from a leather coral, that was stressed due to the fish hosing it. This is purely anecdotal I realize. I have looked at 2 studies now of Sarcophyton (leather corals) and they have stinging cells and produce not only proteins that affect corals but hemolytic compounds that affect red blood cells. With that said, I believe it to be rare and the risks mitigated by good husbandry.
For my situation, I believe the toadstool was irritated by hermit crabs, the clownfish and water parameters, causing its mucus to be more potent. And my little Clown bore the brunt of it.
 
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sfin52

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So recently I began to get into mushrooms and now leathers. I know leather have toxins within them that can harm other corals. I was wondering what the chances are that a leather can kill fish with there toxins? Was wondering if anyone has any inputs particular on neptheas and toadstools.
Not a chance.
Here's my very large devils hand. Never harmed a fish or invert. If it does release chemicals its used for other corals. I've never seen a issue with that either
20230305_173846.jpg
 

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal

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Up until recently I was in the No category as well. However I lost a young Clownfish to mysterious circumstances that point to possible toxins from a leather coral, that was stressed due to the fish hosing it. This is purely anecdotal I realize. I have looked at 2 studies now of Sarcophyton (leather corals) and they have stinging cells and produce not only proteins that affect corals but hemolytic compounds that affect red blood cells. With that said, I believe it to be rare and the risks mitigated by good husbandry.
For my situation, I believe the toadstool was irritated by hermit crabs, the clownfish and water parameters, causing its mucus to be more potent. And my little Clown bore the brunt of it.
I'm sorry for your loss. I respect your experience but I wonder why the clown continued to try to make the leather its host if it was getting stung and/or sick? (I realize fish can't make connections of causality but you'd think evolution would have honed that instinct pretty well...)

What specific affect on red blood cells did you read about? (Just curious, not saying it did or didn't have anything to do with the fish's death)
 

Jeffbear

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I'm sorry for your loss. I respect your experience but I wonder why the clown continued to try to make the leather its host if it was getting stung and/or sick? (I realize fish can't make connections of causality but you'd think evolution would have honed that instinct pretty well...)

What specific affect on red blood cells did you read about? (Just curious, not saying it did or didn't have anything to do with the fish's death)
Thanks. He was a cool little guy. He's definitely missed in the tank. He had been trying to host for about 2 weeks or so. In that time I didn't see any physically telling reaction from the leather. I did notice Clove polyps next to it irritated and not opened very much in that time. And the hermit crabs were making the Leather retract quite a bit. That day, my wife noticed the Clown seemed to be "sleeping" in the Leather. That was an oddity, as it is usually swimming just above the tentacles. About an hour later I noticed it swimming around like it was drunk and breathing rapidly, and swimming against the sand (not rubbing, more like plowing and not for long). Within an hour it was stiff and floating around motionless. There was no marking, no outward signs of disease and it was exhibiting natural behaviors up until that morning. For the last 2 weeks the leather coral went into 2 different shedding phases. Now 2 weeks later, it's polys are back out and it's bigger and more extended than before. I really don't want to equate this to toxins, as there are other reasons for acute onset sickness. I just keep coming back to how odd the Leather coral was acting. I do run Carbon, keep tabs on my parameters and do ICP tests every 3 months. Nothing has been wacky, and no other fish affected. The cloves that were near it rebounded the next day, and I changed my Carbon (I admit it was about a month old, in a reactor) that afternoon the Clownfish passed.

The effects I read about were from the linked study. While they used human blood to study the affect, Clownfish have hemoglobin, so it's safe to assume the same mechanisms at play.


I really can't rule out other factors such as infection, so I can't fully blame toxins from the coral. But the circumstances have me wondering.
 

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