Changing the hardscape in a well-established tank

[Tim Rudisill]

I own a BioCube 32g and I just installed Steves leds in it a few days ago. With the new lights, I'm wanting to make some changes to my rocks and add some more coral into the tank. I'm curious how you would handle this. Our current liverock looks nice, but it really doesn't leave much room for coral. As such, we'd like to remove most/all of it and start over. While I've had the tank for 2 years, I'm barely more knowledgeable than a beginner (if I even am more knowledgeable lol). Well, that's why I'm posting here: I'd like to know what problems I might run into.

The thing is, I don't have a second tank. I don't have anywhere to put my fish or coral, so it's not as if I can just clean the tank out and start brand new. I do have sand in the tank. I've also had a green hair algae issue for sooooo long, though I'm /finally/ starting to make progress on that front. Though while I hope changing the rocks (which will remove almost all the visible GHA) will help, I also realize that's a temporary fix and, frankly, it's merely a hopeful secondary effect from making more room for coral.

What am I wanting to know? Well, what kind of problems do you think I'll run into? If I remove all the existing liverock, will that deplete too much of my beneficial bacteria and cause an ammonia spike? Will putting in new liverock cause a different type of spike? What precautions should I take? Will this not be a big deal after all? I really have no idea. It /feels/ like it might be a big deal and that's why I'm posting here asking for help.

So... help, please? Thanks in advance!

 

[Nanoreefboi]

Do you have any biological media? If you do, you should be fine replacing the rock. Also your GHA problem might have been caused by not curing your dry rock (I have GHA as well, It’s finally starting to die off in my Nuvo 10g a year and a half in) Anyways, I believe that most of the bacteria is living in the sand (I’m not completely sure on this however). If it’s possible for your situation, try curing the new rock in a separate container and supplement with bacteria. This will help prevent the growth of new algae. If you have questions on curing rock, you could always refer to YouTube as well.

 

[MERKEY]

I own a BioCube 32g and I just installed Steves leds in it a few days ago. With the new lights, I'm wanting to make some changes to my rocks and add some more coral into the tank. I'm curious how you would handle this. Our current liverock looks nice, but it really doesn't leave much room for coral. As such, we'd like to remove most/all of it and start over. While I've had the tank for 2 years, I'm barely more knowledgeable than a beginner (if I even am more knowledgeable lol). Well, that's why I'm posting here: I'd like to know what problems I might run into.

The thing is, I don't have a second tank. I don't have anywhere to put my fish or coral, so it's not as if I can just clean the tank out and start brand new. I do have sand in the tank. I've also had a green hair algae issue for sooooo long, though I'm /finally/ starting to make progress on that front. Though while I hope changing the rocks (which will remove almost all the visible GHA) will help, I also realize that's a temporary fix and, frankly, it's merely a hopeful secondary effect from making more room for coral.

What am I wanting to know? Well, what kind of problems do you think I'll run into? If I remove all the existing liverock, will that deplete too much of my beneficial bacteria and cause an ammonia spike? Will putting in new liverock cause a different type of spike? What precautions should I take? Will this not be a big deal after all? I really have no idea. It /feels/ like it might be a big deal and that's why I'm posting here asking for help.

So... help, please? Thanks in advance!

@brandon429 Has great threads about nano rip/deep cleans.

If you remove everything and add new rock and sand you will definitely cause a new cycle.

If you remove the rock and pressure wash to get rid of the algea problem and remove the sand then rinse it completely, you can add them back no problem.

 

[Tankkeepers]

If just rearanging the rocks you will get some die off as a result of things being flipped etc and not having the same flow as before I would expect to see a nutrient increase for a short amount of time also by removing some of the rocks you will start a mini cycle as right now the bacteria on your rocks have balanced with the amount of waste being produced and by removing some that bacteria will have to grow on the rocks left

 

[Tankkeepers]

I will also add that just pressure washing them may not help as there will be nutrients inside the rocks as they balance with the water and they will leach that into the water if not leached in another mannor phosphates especially

 

[MERKEY]

I will also add that just pressure washing them may not help as there will be nutrients inside the rocks as they balance with the water and they will leach that into the water if not leached in another mannor phosphates especially

This has been argued in the threads started by brandon429. 100+ documented rip cleans I believe and no hurt bac or cycles.

His rip clean method says this does not hurt the good bac and it stands pretty solid.

I have done a few rip cleans and tank transfers most recently a 32g and a 75g into a 220. Pressure washed rocks and used hydrogen peroxide for algae.

Bac was not hurt as the beneficial bac lies deep deep inside the rocks and everywhere in the tank.

Phosphate will leak regardless of pressure washing.

I will add to rinse after cleaning always. Don't just pressure wash and drop in the tank. Have a bucket of salt water or rodi that is used for rinsing any nasties out.

 

[Tankkeepers]

Sorry I think I misunderstood what you meant for some reason I thought you was meaning to dry them and then clean them my bad and you are absolutely correct as long as the environment inside the rock does not change then there should be no problem

 

[Tankkeepers]

As in if it's a short amount of time you are only destroying the surfaces not the interior as it takes awhile for the interior of the rocks to change

 

[brandon429]

We should not change out rocks here, algae management is a requirement

new rocks will get it just the same. To fix literally any nano on the planet from gha, this thread below has the fix and it stops the cause, which excluding bad top off water is detritus filth in the sand and rocks. The phosphate of concern we can see, as clouding waste, we don’t have to test for it which is why in 200 fixes here we don’t use and will never use water testing, to fix any biocube with existing rocks read first post and copy some of the jobs here

taking time to test for nitrate and phosphate to fix nano algae issues are a form of hesitation. immediately making your entire nano clean and free of algae is opposite, I recommend that one. test your tank in the clean condition if any, not the invaded one.

Reef2Reef Pest algae challenge thread hydrogen peroxide

What you are really in for: Hand cleaning, hard work siphon and rasp-removing of accumulations and invasions outside the tank and doing massive water changes is 90% of this thread, peroxide is 10%. We almost never dose peroxide into the tank water, this is a you-work-physically-hard as catch-up...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Tim Rudisill]

We should not change out rocks here, algae management is a requirement

new rocks will get it just the same. To fix literally any nano on the planet from gha, this thread below has the fix and it stops the cause, which excluding bad top off water is detritus filth in the sand and rocks. The phosphate of concern we can see, as clouding waste, we don’t have to test for it which is why in 200 fixes here we don’t use and will never use water testing, to fix any biocube with existing rocks read first post and copy some of the jobs here

taking time to test for nitrate and phosphate to fix nano algae issues are a form of hesitation. immediately making your entire nano clean and free of algae is opposite, I recommend that one. test your tank in the clean condition if any, not the invaded one.

Reef2Reef Pest algae challenge thread hydrogen peroxide

What you are really in for: Hand cleaning, hard work siphon and rasp-removing of accumulations and invasions outside the tank and doing massive water changes is 90% of this thread, peroxide is 10%. We almost never dose peroxide into the tank water, this is a you-work-physically-hard as catch-up...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks. The thread has been interesting, though I haven't found a walkthrough in it yet. The threads it links to, though, where you are guiding them through how to fix it? That's been the best part. (Not to take away from the rest.) I'll definitely be adding some questions to that thread within the next couple of days.

But my primary purpose for wanting to change the liverocks has nothing to do with GHA. My rocks are generally pretty (while I've failed at algae control, I have done well with coralline algae), but I have a couple of corals that have done a bit too well at spreading on the rock. I don't remember their names but I will post pictures later.

My main purpose is to make room for other corals. And ... I'm unsure how to get corals to stay on the liverock without it being a bit smooth. I have one coral (hammer coral, I think) that fell off its plug and there's literally one spot where I can get it to stand up without constantly falling over. Unfortunately, it's near a coral that is encrusted on the liverock so they've begun fighting a bit, though fortunately the hammer coral is winning.

Maybe I am asking the wrong question. What is the technique for getting coral onto the liverock and getting it to stay? When I buy the coral from the store it generally comes on plugs. Am I supposed to remove them from the plug? If so, like with my hammer coral, there aren't many places smooth enough where I can put it where it'll stand up without immediately falling over. If I'm supposed to leave it on the plug, how do I keep the plug from tipping over?

I'm completely okay doing the method to remove the hair algae (my job gives me 2 days off in a row, so I'd have the time) if I can figure out how to get the coral onto the liverock better.

 

[brandon429]

Gotcha. For sure it’s super glue it’s not harmful in our tanks just get a standard gel super glue nothing fancy like quickly dry, slow dry, just get gel super glue.

lps like hammers are already super glued to the plug. Break it off carefully and super glue that coral where you want it, the hammer. If you want to move it one day break from location re glue elsewhere.

regarding the actual fix for gha it’s twofold fix in every job: 1. The full cleaning of the tank to remove detritus removes the fuel for Gha 2. Actually rasping gha off the rocks first then last step placing peroxide on the cleaned surfaces kills the algae.

the number one thing we do not ever do is skip cleaning the tank, and dose water with something so algae dies off inside the tank and piles up. In nanos don’t use vibrant or fluconazole or phosphate stripping to starve algae, we didn’t use these for pages above with results mapped out in each example. The retail industry wants you addicted to their $ dont sucker in to them

if there is ever a frag you buy that is so low onto the plug you can’t chip it off without risking breaking do this: get wire cutters.

begin literally cutting from the bottom part of the frag up, towards the coral, crushing it into powder. Destroy the frag mount stating at the bottom working up till there’s only a tiny num left on the coral. Then glue that nub coral anywhere you want in the tank, no more frag.

lastly, on post #1 we were clear in the thread to run a test rock first before you begin any cleaning action.

 

[nynjacricket]

I was successful using the KENT TECH-M MAGNESIUM SUPPLEMENT ADDITIVE - 64 OZ a couple years ago but the formula changed as I finished. New option is out using Vibrant. The Vibrant standard dosing for a dirty tank also worked well to clear up a green bubble algae issue recently.

Kent's Tech M (FAIL) - Continuum reefbasis (FAIL and not waiting) - Vibrant Reef Cleaner - (FAIL)

THE CURE PLEASE CLICK HERE

Hello friends,
I'm doing this method of treatment as I feel it best suits my particular Bryopsis invasion. I have a 20g 4-5 month old tank going strong. This tanks booming with growth! I'm really pleased. I have my friends at home and at R2R to thank. I've always had a green thumb so to speak, but the knowledge posted in these boards is outstanding. I have followed @twilliard and @brandon429 on their H2O2 treatments and rasp technique closely. Totally agree with it and support it! I did not do a rasp but I did do a direct H2O2 treatment with 3% on a zoa frag plug. It worked awesome! Still no bry on the plug today.

So tonight I am starting my Mg dosing regimin. This is in a 20 gallon reef tank. The tank has MANY inverts, 3 fish, and 42 species of coral. I will be paying very close attention during the treatment. I will be taking photos, videos, and logging data.

Reference Links

http://healthyaquatics.com/guides/e...-diseases-reef-parasites-and-nuisance-anima-7

Pictures

8/28/16 - Location of Bryopsis - Center of picture. "Sunny D" Paly and "fruit drop" zoa colonies. To put these pics into perspective there are 16 sunny d polyps and I can only see 5-7 well. These were taken on day 3 of the treatment. I feel like I can see a change in the Bryopsis it may be beginning to die back. Getting a lot of white chunks building up.

Macro pictures of my Bryopsis species in warm freshwater.

To kill a Bryopsis - Using Kent's Tech M

What's needed to do this treatment?
-Bottle of Kents Tech M Magnesium (I have a 64oz.)
-Salifert Mg dosing chart (http://www.salifert.com/instructions temp/magnesium profi-test.pdf)
-My extended Mg dosing chart (https://www.icloud.com/numbers/0YqaxLtjq4jp-Sin_MEQaxu6A#Blank_2)
-Salifert Mg test kit
-1Oz. Measuring cup, ml syringes, conversion calculator, lol
-Mg dosing Calculator ( http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html )
-My daily Log (https://www.icloud.com/numbers/0vP5sftlsKvrm8ORA3SWDXn_Q#Bryopsis_War_Log)

What is the plan?
-Dose the tank with 90-100ppm's of Mg Each day until 1800ppm's are reached or Bryopsis melts. My target is 90ppm a day. (8/28/16. I am struggling to hit target dose each day. Not sure why. The calculator, my measuring?.)
-Once 1500ppm is achieved switch to the extended ppm table. Instead of using 1ml of regent will now use 2ml. The other option is to use 1ml of tank water and 1ml of regent then double the results and refer to the chart. For this purpose I've made the extended chart using 1ml of regent. This save your test solution but the test is not as acurate.
-Test tank each day to calculate how much Mg dose. You can also learn your actual water volume this way. I'm guessing I have 16 gallons of water. I want to be on the low side if anything to begin. I honestly believe it's more like 18 gallons, due to a massive canister filter.
-log the data each day. I'm using numbers on my iPad. Basic cell sheet. I will provide the file if possible.
-Pray, cross my fingers, and rub my shamrock tattoo that all goes as planned.

First Mg Dose
My tanks Bryopsis is growing in 1350ppm of Mg. this was my starting Mg level. I want to raise my tanks Mg by 90ppm. Therfore, I want my first dose to raise the tank to 1440ppm. Using the calculator posted above I need to add 2.6oz of mg. Tomorrow before I dose I'll test the Mg. If I am at 1440ppm I was right on my guess of 16 gallons of water in the tank. If it's under 1440ppm I know I have over 16 gallons of water in the tank. I will probably go up a gallon if that's the case and do a calculation at 17 gallons for the next dose. I'll follow this Trend until I can zero in on my volume. IF, I dose exactly 90 ppm each day I'll hit 1800ppm in 5 days. I'm thinking I will be looking at 7-9 days. I will have to do a water change during this treatment. I may skip it tho.

So that's it for now friends. Check in each day and thanks for reading



Bryopsis pictures on day 6 of treatment (8/31/16). Looks like it's still growing.

9/2/16
Bryopsis is dying, 1 Coral effected by change Mg. A species of Clavularia has become translucent but otherwise healthy.

9/11/16
Bryopsis is dying but spreading. There are parts that are turning clear and easily coming away from the rock then there are parts that are holding tight and dark green. Did manually removal a good ammount I will use for samples/tests.
-Phosphate are at 0/no traceable reading. Using Salifert test.

10/25/16
FAST FORWARD UPDATE
Anyone whos been following my thread know that Kent's was a total failure. Why it worked back in the day and why it doesnt now is still questionable. Story goes Mr. Kent left Kents and took that secret with him. Ok, that sounds like it could be true. Here is gets weird. He opens a new company called Continuum and puts out a product called Reef Basis. Its another Mg dosing product but with a list of metal compounds. One specific compound called LiCl or Lithium Chloride. This is/was the suspected secret ingredient. I began dosing reef basis the same way I dosed Kents. Raised the Mg up to 2000ppm. And quite honestly I lost faith quick. The Bryopsis and other algae were growing just the same. This bring us to UWC's product Vibrant. I didnt want to give up, and continued searching online. Came across some youtube videos of a guy using this product on a Bryopsis mess like I have in my tank. Its this or tank breakdown, so I decided to use Vibrant.

I have dosed twice so far in the course of a week. I am noticing some cleaner/sparkling tank water, and the glass is staying cleaner. It appears that some hair algae's are browning up too.

 

[laverda]

GHA is very easy to kill with hydrogen peroxide. You can just poor a bit over the rocks. Or add some hydrogen peroxide to a bucket full of salt water and swirll it around a bit. You can also add small amounts to the tank directly.
No matter what you do you need to fix the underlying cause of excess nitrates and phosphates.
I find an ATS is an easy way to control them and can be made for $30.

 

[Tim Rudisill]

Alright, so I began using Brandon's method. Even if I end up buying some new hardscape, the tank could use a good rip and cleaning.

I'm in the middle of the project right now. Due to time constraints (have very young kids; doing all this at one time is just not feasible), we are breaking this down into 2 steps. We've completed step 1: My wife and I worked together and removed all the rocks, picked off the GHA algae as best we could, then used hydrogen peroxide and a toothbrush and went to town on those rocks. I then rinsed them off in some saltwater and put the rocks back into the tank.

A few questions here: 1. My fish and CUC are still in that tank. Should they be okay?
2. The rocks will remain in the tank for 12-15 hours until I'm able to go to my LFS and buy some more saltwater. Should I give them another quick one-over tomorrow when I take them out of the tank?
3. My red scooter dragonet became injured when moving the rocks around. I was able to basically catch him by hand (unsure if this is normal because I never tried before), though I had difficulty picking him up. My wife says that his top fin looks damaged, as though scraped by a rock. He's very slow moving now and lethargic. I would have taken a photo but he was slightly mobile and managed to duck under the rocks. What should I do?
4. I have a LOT of the vermetid snails. Basically people say to superglue them. I'm fine with that but there's sooooo many. I'd feel like I was basically supergluing half of my rocks. Or is there a better way of handling this?
5. Gonna upload a picture of my hammer coral once I get ahold of my wife's phone (she took the photo). Looks like he's picked up a couple of the snails too. Harmful to him? And what's the stuff on him?
6. Does hydrogen peroxide hurt the coralline algae?

My planned step 2 for the morning: Put coral and fish into a 10g tank that I have, with current tank water. Move the rocks into a second 10g tank that I have, with current tank water. (Maybe clean it again?) Remove the rest of the water. I'll clean the sand, my wife will clean the tank. We have some GHA on the back of the tank (HOOOOWWWWWW? There's SO MUCH coralline algae on the back!) We'll also clean the glass and the bottom. Then throw everything back into the tank, put new saltwater in, and <hopefully> enjoy the sparkling tank!

Photos before cleaning the rocks:

 

[brandon429]

Nice job starting the documentation the rocks will look much better very soon

Here's some replies maybe w help final process.

1. Regarding fish and cuc: this part of the job is being customized here we dont leave fish in the tank in our sand rinse thread. We disassemble the whole reef, clean it once, put all back same day. Since the job is being customized to match work load we'll have to wait to see the outcome, they're probably fine. The reason we never do partial takedowns in our sand rinse thread is to avoid stirring up waste around fish. The injured fish is likely to heal. The number one way to make fish safe while left in tank during cleaning is to avoid stirring up waste in their presence

2. One round of rock cleaning is OK here

3. Fish is likely to heal, as long as leaving the fish in the tank was generally OK here, will know in hindsight. Likely to be OK.

4. Vermetids. Not everyone agrees on glue, that's something forums made up to try. I accept them all and corals deal with them, I glue none ever. I have many

5. Whatever is growing on the hammer isn't on the polyp is on skeleton, rasp it off like the rock, avoiding the polyp portion

6. Yes peroxide bleaches coraline it's sprayed on, but coralline comes back over time

 

[brandon429]

Seeing how hard this job is really puts contemporary sandbed use in context, if you had a bare bottom reef the cleaning job would be so much easier, I too keep sand for its looks but in a small nano tank the total disassembly is very easy so it’s no headache


but for larger reefs, keeping a sandbed and trying to clean it brings in a kill risk for the whole tank

which circles us back to the 90s approach of hands off, don’t touch something so risky, but then again that method is what’s fueling your rock algae / waste locked in the sand. After this big job it won’t be the last time unless design changes are made to keep waste from compounding - mini cleaning events or full takedown ones again you’ll have to decide. Add to the confusion are people with sand full of waste who haven’t cleaned it, have no rock algae, and will post your tank will be fine if you just leave it all alone. Sandbed keeping involves confusion, risk, and never being sure which way to go but I still keep sand because I like it, and I am sure keeping the sand clean fixes my headaches and prevents them

 

[Doctorgori]

OP I aquascape established rocks about a month ago. It set my tank back a lil because I’m sure all the delicate filter feeders got set back... lost a few brittle stars, et also
I’d try and keep as many sponges et alive as possible if you can and if possible orientate them (up or down) the same.
My zoos and palys survived the 2-3 hrs dry, took em a few days/weeks to emerge tho

 

[Tim Rudisill]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Just a quick couple of photos. One shows how the rocks look now. The other shows my hammer coral and the stuff that's on it.

The water we were rinsing the rocks off was SO DIRTY that we were literally rinsing them off blind. We do notice a couple of straggler GHA that's left on a couple of the last rocks we cleaned. It was dead from the hydrogen peroxide, though. We'll take a minute just to make sure those couple of strands are removed before putting it back into the fresh tank. (Picture of those couple of stragglers not included due to the light from a window creating glare.)

Oh, fun story: apparently my emerald crab hitched a ride on one of the rocks when we were cleaning it. We couldn't see it in the cleaning tank because of how dirty that water was. I drained basically all the water last night to dump it, but a tiny amount was left in there (just enough to /almost/ cover the hermit crab). We found him this morning when we came downstairs. I lifted him up to pick off some of the algae that got on his legs. He was profoundly unhappy about this, to put it mildly. After I put him back in the tank he proceeded to pinch at me before scurrying off. I love that guy. Emerald crabs are just so entertaining to watch.

I believe you are correct about the dragonet. I think he'll survive. He seems to be doing okay, just not lifting his fin up like he was before. I'm guessing that any copepods I had probably need to be replaced after this rip clean, yes?

Progress can be seen so far. Here in a couple of hours I'll be continuing this project. We'll be cleaning the glass, walls, and sand. Putting all new water in, and then snapping some photos to show how it went.

 

[brandon429]

hey nice work, keep up great detail shots of progress I'll link your work in the sand rinse + peroxide threads nice one Tim here

 

[Tim Rudisill]

Whew. I thought cleaning the rocks would be the hardest part. No, it turns out that all of it is the hardest part. lol

Unfortunately by the time I finished, my lights wanted to go into sunset mode. I tried turning them on normal anyway for a few minutes but my tank wasn't falling for those shenanigans. I've attached the photos I took.

A few thoughts:

Holy crap that is work. I will definitely be better my second time. I made a few mistakes:
1. Accidentally injured my dragonet via rockwork This would have been easily avoided if I'd been able to do this rip-clean in one day... but I did what I had to do.
2. Okay, Mr. Emerald Crab. I get it, you are a master ninja. Not only did you evade me by SOMEHOW staying in the grungy cleaning tank overnight, now I have no idea where you went. I figure it rode a rock back into the main tank and, hopefully, he'll make an appearance sometime soon.
3. I scraped off some Vermetids which had made their homes in my chamber 1. I then shop-vac'ed chamber 1 empty. I then filled up my tank. The oops? I should have rinsed chamber 1 out and shop-vac'ed it again. A little bit of debris made its way into my main tank. I can see just a tiny bit floating around. It's not much, of course. Just enough to make me upset!
4. Similar to number 3. Now that the rocks are assembled anew, I can see where a couple of strands of dead green hair algae are kinda waving about, taunting me. There are only about 3 or 4. I could not see them when the powerhead wasn't blowing on them.
5. Letting it get out of control like this in the first place. Even when it was full of green hair algae, I loved to look at it. Now? Well, I love it all the more.