Chromium and Cobalt

[gpwdr]

Does any one know anything about dosing Chromium and or Cobalt?

Benefits?

Reasons?

 

[-Logzor]

I think we have barely scratched the surface regarding the function of major elements, such a potassium, so I think it's unlikely that anyone could make a recommendation regarding chromium or cobalt.

Is it possible these tests are providing an overabundance of data that is causing more confusion than is necessary?

Clearly if there is a toxicity issue, it can be addressed via export (water changes), but dosing these minor elements because it shows up as "deficient" seems unnecessary. I'm not sure the nails need hammering, as the tests may indicate.

Of all the best reef tanks that we've seen on the forum I've not seen one that doses these elements, so I can't understand why it would be necessary to dose them.

 

[gpwdr]

Makes sense to me Logzor. Maybe this question could only be answered by Eshan at Triton.
I was thinking there was suspicion regarding the benefits of these two elementz.

Gene

 

[-Logzor]

I know people have had good results with some the Fauna Marine color elements and similar products. It's hard to say what exactly is in these supplements. Perhaps they contain trace elements like chromium and cobalt where tiny amounts impact coral coloration and polyp extension. I think it's just impossible to say, but I'm curious what Eahan's response will be relative to the need to actually dose these elements individually.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They are clearly essential elements for organisms to live, but exactly how much in the water is optimal will never have a simple one number answer as the bioavailability depends on the form and what it is bound to, and what they are bound to may well vary from tank to tank depending on what organic matter is present.

I think that if this is an area that interests you, you'll have to experiment and see if dosing is useful for your aquarium.

 

[gpwdr]

They are in the Fe-Group in the Triton Error Correction Sheet. Are these elementz in salt water?

Gene

 

[Sangheili]

I think these kinds of experiments and knowledge are what the future is about. We already know certain corals take up elements faster then others such as Manganese for Gonioporia and Magnesium for some Gorgonians. While not a perfect view as elements can be removed by filtration export (GFO and Skimmer for example), the collection of data from Triton tests on many differing tanks and how we organize that data could lead to some very interesting findings. I found that some corals lost color and lightened up when dosing Tech-M in a way that is not really the same as normal "bleaching". Psammocora and Zoas were the most affected.

For me the two most interesting so far are that fresh PVC plumbing gives of Tin and Tech-M appears to be a mixture of Magnesium and Lithium. AFAIK, both of these were unknown facts before ICP testing.

Kind of off-topic from the original thread intent but I wanted to share my viewpoint vs. the "if it ain't broke dont fix it" approach I hear many saying (not necessarily in this thread). Experimentation is the essential of science and discovery

 

[gpwdr]

I just did a lot of plumbing. I got quite a bit of PVC cut particles in the water. I had no tin before and soon I'll submit another Triton test. So if I have tin this should prove you right. I'll let you know.

Gene

 

[Sangheili]

I just did a lot of plumbing. I got quite a bit of PVC cut particles in the water. I had no tin before and soon I'll submit another Triton test. So if I have tin this should prove you right. I'll let you know.

Gene

There is another thread that I think RHF started which has a poll that had quite a few people showing Tin on freshly plumbed tanks. I saw it myself. It is possible it comes from something else in a "new" tank however as I don't believe a solid consensus was reached but I am going off purely my poor memory

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They are in the Fe-Group in the Triton Error Correction Sheet. Are these elementz in salt water?

Gene

All elements are in natural seawater, if that is the question.

 

[JimWelsh]

"All" is a mighty powerful word you're using, there, Randy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"All" is a mighty powerful word you're using, there, Randy.

Well, OK, I'll amend that to all naturally occurring elements found on the surface of the earth. I wouldn't claim that seawater has much Ununseptium or other elements that have only been detected in particle accelerators.

But that said, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that the ocean doesn't contain at least one atom of every possible element, even ones that have not yet been detected by man.

 

[-Logzor]

Wait a second....corals ARE seawater?

 

[JimWelsh]

It's just a pet peeve of mine when manufacturers claim that their products contain some very large number of "essential elements", stretching credulity about both which elements are "essential" and also whether the manufacturer has specifically included them or is just relying upon some "they must all be present at some low level" sort of argument. Case in point: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/will-this-be-available-by-triton-us.178659/ "...102 essential elements that every reef dweller requires...." Really? My Tangs require Einsteinium in order to live? From where, exactly, did Triton source that element? In fairness, the quote in the OP in that thread is from the website of a UK distributor of Triton products, and I've never seen Triton, per se, make such a claim, but this quote did go unchallenged when re-quoted and responded to by the sponsor themselves.

 

[lexinverts]

It's just a pet peeve of mine when manufacturers claim that their products contain some very large number of "essential elements", stretching credulity about both which elements are "essential" and also whether the manufacturer has specifically included them or is just relying upon some "they must all be present at some low level" sort of argument. Case in point: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/will-this-be-available-by-triton-us.178659/ "...102 essential elements that every reef dweller requires...." Really? My Tangs require Einsteinium in order to live? From where, exactly, did Triton source that element? In fairness, the quote in the OP in that thread is from the website of a UK distributor of Triton products, and I've never seen Triton, per se, make such a claim, but this quote did go unchallenged when re-quoted and responded to by the sponsor themselves.

It's a valid point. Therefore, I think you should be pleased with how much data are being generated by the Triton Method and Triton Labs approach. I think we're going to learn an awful lot about trace elements in reef tanks from the "big data" that are generated over the next few years.

 

[Triton US]

It's just a pet peeve of mine when manufacturers claim that their products contain some very large number of "essential elements", stretching credulity about both which elements are "essential" and also whether the manufacturer has specifically included them or is just relying upon some "they must all be present at some low level" sort of argument. Case in point: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/will-this-be-available-by-triton-us.178659/ "...102 essential elements that every reef dweller requires...." Really? My Tangs require Einsteinium in order to live? From where, exactly, did Triton source that element? In fairness, the quote in the OP in that thread is from the website of a UK distributor of Triton products, and I've never seen Triton, per se, make such a claim, but this quote did go unchallenged when re-quoted and responded to by the sponsor themselves.

I agree with you Jim. I missed this original post you referenced mentioning the 102 essential elements but in hindsight I don't think I would have jumped on it since the phrase was never really on my radar. I also think the term "essential" is so widely used to describe the general assembly of trace elements (some essential- some probably not) found in synthetic salts and macro marine additives that using it doesn't, in my opinion, cross any lines of honesty that do not already exist in our hobby. Could we rise above the line and stop using the term essential? absolutely. I'll start now


Regarding the use of cobalt and chromium- Ehsan and Triton US does not recommend the general use of the elements for success. We offer them simply because we can and because people in the UK have asked for them. Ehsan explained it to me a while back that early balling method reefers were experimenting with cobalt and chromium with unknown results. They enjoyed Ehsan's dedication to pure, simple high quality products and chemicals and requested these two elements amongst others. Please do not mistake product availability as product pushing- they are two very different things. This is directly from Unique Corals website regarding the usage of some of these elements.

"Triton Trace Base-Chromium- 100ml- This product is for expert use only. Triton does not recommend adding this to your tank other than for experimental purposes only. Use this product conservatively and be sure to share any possible anecdotal benefits with fellow reefers in a cautious and thoughtful manner. Please always first consult your Triton ICP-OES test results for the specific dosing requirements for your reef system."

Since the concentration for these mentioned elements occurs below the LOD's of triton's ICP testing, you will never be told to add Chromium, Cobalt, even Iron for example to your water in the recommended dosage section.

Like it was mentioned above, the triton testing, in our opinion better serves the reefing community to point out issues of contamination of many of these lesser known elements rather than to assist in the dosing of them. (I just edited this after seeing that most of the post was missing somehow)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's just a pet peeve of mine when manufacturers claim that their products contain some very large number of "essential elements", stretching credulity about both which elements are "essential" and also whether the manufacturer has specifically included them or is just relying upon some "they must all be present at some low level" sort of argument. Case in point: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/will-this-be-available-by-triton-us.178659/ "...102 essential elements that every reef dweller requires...." Really? My Tangs require Einsteinium in order to live? From where, exactly, did Triton source that element? In fairness, the quote in the OP in that thread is from the website of a UK distributor of Triton products, and I've never seen Triton, per se, make such a claim, but this quote did go unchallenged when re-quoted and responded to by the sponsor themselves.

I certainly agree that there are not 102 essential elements. The actually useful ones might not be much more than 30.

 

[David Cher]

i am having elevated levels of those elements how to lower them ?

 

[McPikie]

i am having elevated levels of those elements how to lower them ?

Me too, Cobalt seems to be high in my tank and I wondered where this comes from? Could it be a screw somewhere, or would that show up as Fe? Or have I overdosed the FaunaMarin Balling liquids to my Kh supplement?

results by Phil Cookson, on Flickr

Also, Phosphorus showing high, but so is phosphate. I guess these two are interlinked or could the P be from elsewhere?

@Randy Holmes-Farley I also see strontium is low. Could you advise how much I would need to add to a 225l tank to get it back to where I should be?

 

[Tim2@Triton]

Me too, Cobalt seems to be high in my tank and I wondered where this comes from? Could it be a screw somewhere, or would that show up as Fe? Or have I overdosed the FaunaMarin Balling liquids to my Kh supplement?

results by Phil Cookson, on Flickr

Also, Phosphorus showing high, but so is phosphate. I guess these two are interlinked or could the P be from elsewhere?

@Randy Holmes-Farley I also see strontium is low. Could you advise how much I would need to add to a 225l tank to get it back to where I should be?

@McPikie had you used a Triton ICP-OES test you wouldnt have to ask @Randy Holmes-Farley for dosing advice