Chrysophytes?! Help me cure it?

taricha

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regarding UV, although the ones we've seen under the scope are entirely motionless, locked in mucus blobs, and don't appear to migrate en masse like dinos do - several of the species in the papers posted have a motile phase with flagella. So it's possible, but not certain that UV could be helpful.
 
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reeferfoxx

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I wanted to post about these, and some of the things that persuade me it's not Dinos, and indeed is chrysophytes.

The best matches in phycokey I've seen are 3 chrysophytes in the group non-flagellate colonies.
*Chysocapsa
*Tetrasporopsis
*Chysosaccus
Screen Shot 2018-03-03 at 7.05.25 AM.png


These are very good visual matches (size, shape, color, cell structure, organization) for the best microscope shots I've seen from a couple of different users.
additionally, the descriptions are spot on for what reefers have described.
"Amorphous colonies with unpigmented gelatinous extracellular matrix." "Colony with cells embedded in mucilage, in groups of four." "Gelatinous colonies of non-flagellated globose cells."

The thing troubling me was that ALL of these are freshwater.

Running across that paper @mcarroll talked about with the benthic chrysophyte growths in Corsica made me feel much better that there are indeed relatives of these guys that match the traits and show up in marine habitats. And benthic too. Fits very well.

Furthermore: there's another fantastic paper (brand new) that tries to disentangle the classification issues within these related groups of marine chrysophytes.
A Re-investigation of Sarcinochrysis marina (Sarcinochrysidales, Pelagophyceae) from its Type Locality and the Descriptions of Arachnochrysis, Pelagospilus, Sargassococcus and Sungminbooa genera nov.

(I'll be honest, I don't care much about classification within sub-orders of chrysophyte - I read it for the pictures)

One thing I'd like to see done - just as a demonstration:
Get a sample of these golden chrysophyte guys under the scope, and add a drop of zooxanthellae harvested from a coral (softies are easy). Try to get cells of each in the same microscope shot. What I expect we'll see is that the colors are definitively different - the symbiotic dino from the corals should look a good bit more brown, and these chrysophytes more golden.
Darn it taricha! You squashed my hopes of having some sort of awesome graphical chrysophyte ID page!

Get a sample of these golden chrysophyte guys under the scope
This is the difficult part. They are much smaller than dinos and appear mulmish without a 1200x(+) magnification. I'll try to save pennies for a slightly better scope. Honestly, if anyone has the ability to magnify and $50-$100 for Carib Sea live sand and BRS reef saver rock, you can grow chrysophytes. It's sometimes a oddly enough common occurrence to get chrysos with that combination f rock and sand.
 

taricha

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Darn it taricha! You squashed my hopes of having some sort of awesome graphical chrysophyte ID page!


This is the difficult part. They are much smaller than dinos and appear mulmish without a 1200x(+) magnification. I'll try to save pennies for a slightly better scope. Honestly, if anyone has the ability to magnify and $50-$100 for Carib Sea live sand and BRS reef saver rock, you can grow chrysophytes. It's sometimes a oddly enough common occurrence to get chrysos with that combination f rock and sand.
Hah. Don't let me stop you organizing an ID page.
The scope requirements are yeah, more than a toy scope, but not crazy. with mine which is like the ~70 dollar amscope selection and using the 4x lens zoom on my Samsung, I can image bacterial wiggles and other stuff at the ~1 micron scale. Just lay it right on eyepiece.

I see you trying to trick me into attempting to grow these suckers! Not happening. (But really cool!)
@mcarroll any indication WHY colonies of these things are so rare in the wild?
 
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reeferfoxx

reeferfoxx

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Darn it taricha! You squashed my hopes of having some sort of awesome graphical chrysophyte ID page!
@taricha OMG! Excuse my ignorance but this new research is amazing! I would like to showcase some of this graphically but I'd prefer to narrow it down to a more frequent occurrence experienced by reefers. Hmmm. Sort of soaking some of this information in. I was thrown off by this statement.
"The genus was placed in the class Chrysophyceae even though Geitler pointed out that the unusual zoosporesresembled the motile cells of brown algae and differed significantly from typical chrysophyte swimming cells."

Of course anything is possible but seriously, have we been misclassifying these? Swimming chrysophytes?
 

taricha

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I would like to showcase some of this graphically but I'd prefer to narrow it down to a more frequent occurrence experienced by reefers.
True. That's probably why for now the paper about the chrysophytes in corsica is a better anchor. It seems a better case that the organism in the paper is actually showing up in poeple's tanks.


"The genus was placed in the class Chrysophyceae even though Geitler pointed out that the unusual zoospores resembled the motile cells of brown algae and differed significantly from typical chrysophyte swimming cells."

Of course anything is possible but seriously, have we been misclassifying these? Swimming chrysophytes?
swimming spores of chrysophytes. With their dominant form the benthic mucous-y blobs we know and love.

It's possble it's something else, but I do think chrysophyte is by far the best candidate for these things we deal with.
 
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mcarroll

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@mcarroll any indication WHY colonies of these things are so rare in the wild?

Harmful algal blooms: their ecophysiological and general relevance to phytoplankton blooms in the sea.

Another goodie by Smayda (rip) is Harmful algal blooms: their ecophysiological and general relevance to phytoplankton blooms in the sea.
(http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...gu&s=34a7d8e1c20a08aab44e81b5677feff2b88ef123)

He makes the point that dino's are the most prevalent of the harmful algae species, so I think it's just lower odds of running into some other type of algae misbehaving in an equally noticeable manner.

About 300 (7%) of the estimated 3,400-4,100 phytoplankton species have been reported to produce “red tides,” including diatoms, dinoflagellates, silicoflagellates, prymnesiophytes, and raphidophytes (Sournia 1995). Excluding diatoms decreases this number to ~200; moreover, most red tide spccics do not produce harmful blooms. Only 60-80 species (2%) of the 300 taxa are actually harmful or toxic as a result of their biotoxins, physical damage, anoxia, irradiance reduction, nutritional unsuitability, etc. Of these, flagellate species account for 90% and, among flagellates, dinoflagellates stand out as a particularly noxious group. They account for 75% (45-60 taxa) of all harmful algal bloom (HAB) species. The exceptional importance of dinoflagellates is further evident from their preminence among the species, perhaps 10-12, primarily responsible for the current expansion and regional spreading of HAB outbreaks in the sea (Anderson 1989; Hallegraeff 1993; Smayda 1989a, 1990).
 

taricha

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He makes the point that dino's are the most prevalent of the harmful algae species, so I think it's just lower odds of running into some other type of algae misbehaving in an equally noticeable manner.

Ah, the lesser villains are always getting overshadowed by the big name bad guys.

It's a shame. Some quality villainy here.
 

mcarroll

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True....the quantities of mucus they reported a bloom generating was astounding...I think it was like an 8-12" layer if I recall correctly...could either bee floating or submerged....devastating either way.
 

Ert

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Interesting thread. I believe I'm battling chryosohyte as well. I'll take pics in the morning for proper ID. I've implemented chaeto and WC which has helped a lot.
 

chefjpaul

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Great detailed thread @ reeferfoxx as always. I seem to be slightly behind you on many of these issues at hand, and your threads have been a huge help.

Regarding my current tank, I think I maybe here.

This nuisance doesn't seem to bother anything in the tank that I can tell.
The tank is only a couple months old, started with dry sand, marco & staxx rock, seeded with various media, rock etc.. from my old sump.

This stuff doesn't adhere to the rock, but lightly attach to the sand, very easily blown off.

PO4 - .04
NO3 - can't get a reading from Sailfert nor red sea.
I just started to dose NO3 to avoid other bacteria/ dino infestations from happening, but I'm not quite sure this is nutrient related???


I did keep some of my "cryptic zone" creatures, rock etc that are in the bottom chambers of this AIO 50G lagoon. Hopefully it gets flourishing again soon.

I believe in the microscope pic & video there is a combo of things dino etc.., i just don't know enough to know.




 
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reeferfoxx

reeferfoxx

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I believe in the microscope pic & video there is a combo of things dino etc.., i just don't know enough to know.
Unfortunately, we can't upload video directly to R2R. No worries though. This in a lack of better terms is a nuisance soup.

I did keep some of my "cryptic zone" creatures, rock etc that are in the bottom chambers of this AIO 50G lagoon. Hopefully it gets flourishing again soon.
This would be the source for half the problems shown, however, no issue at all! A healthy reef contains all the good and bad. It just takes time and little effort on our part to shift things for the better.

For now, I would ignore everything you see except for the dinos. This "soup" is just a mixture of diatoms, cyano, bacteria, dinos and it's mucus. Dinos create mucus for several purposes such as high flow or not enough food source. This allows it to trap its food. Dinos can become a problem for future additions and should be taken care of first. I would monitor no3 and po4. Keeping stable numbers with N around 5-10ppm and P around 0.05-0.10.

Not sure if there are any coral in the tank(?) but leaving the lights off would help a lot too.
 

chefjpaul

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Unfortunately, we can't upload video directly to R2R. No worries though. This in a lack of better terms is a nuisance soup.


This would be the source for half the problems shown, however, no issue at all! A healthy reef contains all the good and bad. It just takes time and little effort on our part to shift things for the better.

For now, I would ignore everything you see except for the dinos. This "soup" is just a mixture of diatoms, cyano, bacteria, dinos and it's mucus. Dinos create mucus for several purposes such as high flow or not enough food source. This allows it to trap its food. Dinos can become a problem for future additions and should be taken care of first. I would monitor no3 and po4. Keeping stable numbers with N around 5-10ppm and P around 0.05-0.10.

Not sure if there are any coral in the tank(?) but leaving the lights off would help a lot too.
Thanks.

yeah, this soup isn't that bad in reality. Compared to my previous dino fight.

There are a bit of corals I brought over from previous tank, where the dino comes in.

I've beaten them down before successfully, just balancing the nutrient fluctuations in a new tank again sucks. Back to testing and dosing, one thing at a time.

A couple weeks ago, my NO3 was sitting at 4ppm and thought, hey lets keep it stable and put my Arid reactor on line, thinking it would maintain....well, it works a bit to efficiently and grew macro so fast, stripping it out...lol...
 
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reeferfoxx

reeferfoxx

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Thanks.

yeah, this soup isn't that bad in reality. Compared to my previous dino fight.

There are a bit of corals I brought over from previous tank, where the dino comes in.

I've beaten them down before successfully, just balancing the nutrient fluctuations in a new tank again sucks. Back to testing and dosing, one thing at a time.
If it helps, that is ostreopsis and can quickly be knocked back with a UV sterilizer. You don't need the best. Just something adequate.
 

chefjpaul

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If it helps, that is ostreopsis and can quickly be knocked back with a UV sterilizer. You don't need the best. Just something adequate.
I was just looking them up.

I will give it a shot, as the nutrient chase game is necessary, but very long.
 

Diznaster

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Honestly, if anyone has the ability to magnify and $50-$100 for Carib Sea live sand and BRS reef saver rock, you can grow chrysophytes.
WOW! This thread is the closest thing to hope I have had in almost three months of an ugly brown new tank. 80 Lbs. or reef saver and 70 Lbs. of Carib Sea, I'm a pro a growing this stuff :(. My microscope is pretty nice, but meant for electronics and can't get near 1200x, but I'm looking into something for biological. Hopefully by the time I figure that out this ugly will be gone.

I have been scrubbing it off and running a canister filter with polishing filters about once a week for the last couple weeks. About to do it again after a week. I might try the blackout, but I'm confused on how that helps long term. It seems like it will kill now, but if this reef saver is leaching silicates I would expect it to come back. Maybe the short GFO cycle causes it to leach out faster and deplete?

I'm willing to go there, but I'll do scrub and filter a little longer first. Part of my hesitation on GFO is I think I have a few patches of Dino starting. My PO4 has always been zero (I did just test it and it actually registered 0.01 ppm for the first time). Nitrate was high for a while but was dropping fast and was zero yesterday.

Though, the green algae on the rocks is the right direction. When I had chrysos I never experienced the normal cycles of hair algae and cyano until chrysos were gone. So anything green or red post chrysos is the right direction.

I'm starting to get a couple GHA spots, so maybe the end is near? Or the battle with something worse has just begun...

GHA Spot.jpg


Dino.jpg
 
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reeferfoxx

reeferfoxx

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WOW! This thread is the closest thing to hope I have had in almost three months of an ugly brown new tank. 80 Lbs. or reef saver and 70 Lbs. of Carib Sea, I'm a pro a growing this stuff :(. My microscope is pretty nice, but meant for electronics and can't get near 1200x, but I'm looking into something for biological. Hopefully by the time I figure that out this ugly will be gone.

I have been scrubbing it off and running a canister filter with polishing filters about once a week for the last couple weeks. About to do it again after a week. I might try the blackout, but I'm confused on how that helps long term. It seems like it will kill now, but if this reef saver is leaching silicates I would expect it to come back. Maybe the short GFO cycle causes it to leach out faster and deplete?

I'm willing to go there, but I'll do scrub and filter a little longer first. Part of my hesitation on GFO is I think I have a few patches of Dino starting. My PO4 has always been zero (I did just test it and it actually registered 0.01 ppm for the first time). Nitrate was high for a while but was dropping fast and was zero yesterday.



I'm starting to get a couple GHA spots, so maybe the end is near? Or the battle with something worse has just begun...

GHA Spot.jpg


Dino.jpg
Your growth doesn't appear to look like chrysophytes but more like diatom and maybe dino. If possible a microscope will help ID it. In the mean time, I would let the tank do its thing for a couple months. It's too early to head straight into coral or any means of action against it. Lack of nutrients will surely create issues. So, any GFO or heavy nutrient reducing methods will make things worse.
 

mcarroll

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@Diznaster check out the dino sticky thread at the top of this forum.

Also, get some pics with the scope you have at its highest magnification and see what you get. (I'd like to see too....and which scope do you have?)

I think folks have gotten shots at 400x before on the dino thread.
 

taricha

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