CLOSED LOOP PUMP

[mfinn]

https://www.championlighting.com/jebao-dcq-8000-dc-submersible-pump-new-model-.html
According to the specs on this website, the pumps inlet and outlet are 1-1/4" and pumps 2100 gph.
Choke all that down to 3/4" lines and it's no wonder there isn't much flow.

 

[TaylorPilot]

A few things. First of all, your pump has a 1.25" outlet. I would up-size it to 1.5" to reduce friction loss as much as possible. Use swept 90, or dual 45's for each turn. Line locs are fine, but you will get a lot of friction from them, unless you keep the plumbing large and only reduce it right before it goes into each unit. Next, is head pressure. If the inlet end of the pump and the outlet end of the pump are both in the display, you do not have to worry about vertical distance. Think about it. If you shut off your return pump, what does it do? It siphons back into the sump until it draws in air and breaks the siphon. If you cut off your closed loop pump, what does the water do? Nothing, it just stops, because there isn't any water height difference between the inlet and outlet. The only thing that creates head pressure at that point is the friction loss from the plumbing. Again, oversize the plumbing and don't use standard 90's...ever...One more comment...the way they calculate flow for a power head and how they calculate flow for an inline pump are completely different. For a powerhead, they put the powerhead in water and use a device to measure water velocity in a 3d grid all round the power head, then calculate total flow. This calculates how much water is actually being moved around in the tank. For an inline pump, they measure the velocity of water inside the outlet pipe, and from that, using a specific plumbing size, calculate how much water is flowing through the pipe. The problem with this is that it isn't apples to apples. When the water comes out of a plumbing outlet, it creates an area of low pressure behind the edge of the pipe that draws in water from around the outlet, moving more water than just what was inside the pipe. People don't use closed loops much anymore, so no one has taken the time to calculate them, but I can say with confidence that 3000 GPH coming out of a pipe will produce a lot more in tank flow than a powerhead rated at 3000 GPH. So keep that in mind when trying to estimate your total system turnover. For a 300DD, I would start with atleast 2 DC style pumps. 2 Ecotech L2 pumps would be a good place to start and as it fills in, you may need to add more...

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

I hope the suction line isn't 3/4".

It is ..... ?

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

A few things. First of all, your pump has a 1.25" outlet. I would up-size it to 1.5" to reduce friction loss as much as possible. Use swept 90, or dual 45's for each turn. Line locs are fine, but you will get a lot of friction from them, unless you keep the plumbing large and only reduce it right before it goes into each unit. Next, is head pressure. If the inlet end of the pump and the outlet end of the pump are both in the display, you do not have to worry about vertical distance. Think about it. If you shut off your return pump, what does it do? It siphons back into the sump until it draws in air and breaks the siphon. If you cut off your closed loop pump, what does the water do? Nothing, it just stops, because there isn't any water height difference between the inlet and outlet. The only thing that creates head pressure at that point is the friction loss from the plumbing. Again, oversize the plumbing and don't use standard 90's...ever...One more comment...the way they calculate flow for a power head and how they calculate flow for an inline pump are completely different. For a powerhead, they put the powerhead in water and use a device to measure water velocity in a 3d grid all round the power head, then calculate total flow. This calculates how much water is actually being moved around in the tank. For an inline pump, they measure the velocity of water inside the outlet pipe, and from that, using a specific plumbing size, calculate how much water is flowing through the pipe. The problem with this is that it isn't apples to apples. When the water comes out of a plumbing outlet, it creates an area of low pressure behind the edge of the pipe that draws in water from around the outlet, moving more water than just what was inside the pipe. People don't use closed loops much anymore, so no one has taken the time to calculate them, but I can say with confidence that 3000 GPH coming out of a pipe will produce a lot more in tank flow than a powerhead rated at 3000 GPH. So keep that in mind when trying to estimate your total system turnover. For a 300DD, I would start with atleast 2 DC style pumps. 2 Ecotech L2 pumps would be a good place to start and as it fills in, you may need to add more...

Thank you very much for all the information , i appreciate it and was very helpful

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

A few things. First of all, your pump has a 1.25" outlet. I would up-size it to 1.5" to reduce friction loss as much as possible. Use swept 90, or dual 45's for each turn. Line locs are fine, but you will get a lot of friction from them, unless you keep the plumbing large and only reduce it right before it goes into each unit. Next, is head pressure. If the inlet end of the pump and the outlet end of the pump are both in the display, you do not have to worry about vertical distance. Think about it. If you shut off your return pump, what does it do? It siphons back into the sump until it draws in air and breaks the siphon. If you cut off your closed loop pump, what does the water do? Nothing, it just stops, because there isn't any water height difference between the inlet and outlet. The only thing that creates head pressure at that point is the friction loss from the plumbing. Again, oversize the plumbing and don't use standard 90's...ever...One more comment...the way they calculate flow for a power head and how they calculate flow for an inline pump are completely different. For a powerhead, they put the powerhead in water and use a device to measure water velocity in a 3d grid all round the power head, then calculate total flow. This calculates how much water is actually being moved around in the tank. For an inline pump, they measure the velocity of water inside the outlet pipe, and from that, using a specific plumbing size, calculate how much water is flowing through the pipe. The problem with this is that it isn't apples to apples. When the water comes out of a plumbing outlet, it creates an area of low pressure behind the edge of the pipe that draws in water from around the outlet, moving more water than just what was inside the pipe. People don't use closed loops much anymore, so no one has taken the time to calculate them, but I can say with confidence that 3000 GPH coming out of a pipe will produce a lot more in tank flow than a powerhead rated at 3000 GPH. So keep that in mind when trying to estimate your total system turnover. For a 300DD, I would start with atleast 2 DC style pumps. 2 Ecotech L2 pumps would be a good place to start and as it fills in, you may need to add more...

With the current pump i have now i should open up the diameter much larger and probably run 1 pump for each side ? Add another for the other side ?

 

[mfinn]

It is ..... ?

Suction side plumbing needs to be at least as big as the pumps suction side.
To get the maximum flow possible run the plumbing out of the pump the same size as the pump as far as possible.

 

[TaylorPilot]

With the current pump i have now i should open up the diameter much larger and probably run 1 pump for each side ? Add another for the other side ?

That would be ideal. I would increase the plumbing size to 1.5" if you could. That is one size larger than the outlet of the pump. Run them both in ramping modes, so they can create some random flow. Closed loops are really cool, I don't understand why more people don't use them on larger systems.

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

That would be ideal. I would increase the plumbing size to 1.5" if you could. That is one size larger than the outlet of the pump. Run them both in ramping modes, so they can create some random flow. Closed loops are really cool, I don't understand why more people don't use them on larger systems.

Thank you , i appreciate the help ! run 1.5 " diam. as far as i can all the way up to the loc-lines correct ? both draw line and return ....... and yes i totally agree , i had a few power heads on the back but as coral grows it will be harder and harder to get them out and clean them .... it is also a pain in the butt as they are in the back , i have a canopy and side cabinets with glass shelves , gotta move those etc .... figures i can come up with a closed loop style flow for less maintenance ? guess i have some RE - plumbing to do .

 

[14 foot reef]

You should look into this line of pumps. I made the switch from Reeflo to these and I will never go back. Unbelievable build quality and warranty

https://www.mrcamerica.com/pumps/

 

[jda]

I wonder how many people here have actually used a CL? There is no head loss on a CL - they are closed systems. There is friction and pipe loss. I cannot believe that people are suggesting DC pumps. DC pumps are a joke on a CL unless they are powerful like a Abyzz. They only move the advertised water with no restrictions whatsoever and they slow down significantly with any type of back pressure. There is no way around this.

Suggesting DC pumps for a CL (there are a few at $1000+ price point) is almost as ridiculous as suggesting DC pumps for 30 foot head applications - you are going to end up with a AmpMaster (or the like) or else you will be unhappy, just like high head people end up with Iwaki or PanWorld or else they are unhappy.

I used to use spa flex for CLs to cut down on friction and elbows and stuff. Don't forget your unions near the pump so that you can take it out if you ever need to. Eductors can provide lots of flow if you have a strong pump - they are amazingly effective if you have velocity out of the nozzle. If you want 4 outlets and don't have the flow to keep the velocity strong, then look at an Ocean's Motion 4 way.

If you don't want to pay for a strong AC pump, then get some gyres and in-tank pumps and save yourself some trouble.

 

[14 foot reef]

I wonder how many people here have actually used a CL? There is no head loss on a CL - they are closed systems. There is friction and pipe loss. I cannot believe that people are suggesting DC pumps. DC pumps are a joke on a CL unless they are powerful like a Abyzz. They only move the advertised water with no restrictions whatsoever and they slow down significantly with any type of back pressure. There is no way around this.

Suggesting DC pumps for a CL (there are a few at $1000+ price point) is almost as ridiculous as suggesting DC pumps for 30 foot head applications - you are going to end up with a AmpMaster (or the like) or else you will be unhappy, just like high head people end up with Iwaki or PanWorld or else they are unhappy.

I used to use spa flex for CLs to cut down on friction and elbows and stuff. Don't forget your unions near the pump so that you can take it out if you ever need to. Eductors can provide lots of flow if you have a strong pump - they are amazingly effective if you have velocity out of the nozzle. If you want 4 outlets and don't have the flow to keep the velocity strong, then look at an Ocean's Motion 4 way.

If you don't want to pay for a strong AC pump, then get some gyres and in-tank pumps and save yourself some trouble.

This is spot on and a perfect explanation of the best way to set up a CL and not be disappointed. My closed loop was set up exactly like this. Spa Flex and a Dolphin Amp Master pump driving an Oceans Motions 4 way valve. When I added the large MRC 6100's to my system, I put 2 online from the sump and removed Dolphin amp master under the tank and changed the Oceans motions valve to run from the second MRC 6100 in the garage sump.

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

I wonder how many people here have actually used a CL? There is no head loss on a CL - they are closed systems. There is friction and pipe loss. I cannot believe that people are suggesting DC pumps. DC pumps are a joke on a CL unless they are powerful like a Abyzz. They only move the advertised water with no restrictions whatsoever and they slow down significantly with any type of back pressure. There is no way around this.

Suggesting DC pumps for a CL (there are a few at $1000+ price point) is almost as ridiculous as suggesting DC pumps for 30 foot head applications - you are going to end up with a AmpMaster (or the like) or else you will be unhappy, just like high head people end up with Iwaki or PanWorld or else they are unhappy.

I used to use spa flex for CLs to cut down on friction and elbows and stuff. Don't forget your unions near the pump so that you can take it out if you ever need to. Eductors can provide lots of flow if you have a strong pump - they are amazingly effective if you have velocity out of the nozzle. If you want 4 outlets and don't have the flow to keep the velocity strong, then look at an Ocean's Motion 4 way.

If you don't want to pay for a strong AC pump, then get some gyres and in-tank pumps and save yourself some trouble.

The Oceans motion 4 way is that a stand alone pump ? or do i need something else with this ?

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

I wonder how many people here have actually used a CL? There is no head loss on a CL - they are closed systems. There is friction and pipe loss. I cannot believe that people are suggesting DC pumps. DC pumps are a joke on a CL unless they are powerful like a Abyzz. They only move the advertised water with no restrictions whatsoever and they slow down significantly with any type of back pressure. There is no way around this.

Suggesting DC pumps for a CL (there are a few at $1000+ price point) is almost as ridiculous as suggesting DC pumps for 30 foot head applications - you are going to end up with a AmpMaster (or the like) or else you will be unhappy, just like high head people end up with Iwaki or PanWorld or else they are unhappy.

I used to use spa flex for CLs to cut down on friction and elbows and stuff. Don't forget your unions near the pump so that you can take it out if you ever need to. Eductors can provide lots of flow if you have a strong pump - they are amazingly effective if you have velocity out of the nozzle. If you want 4 outlets and don't have the flow to keep the velocity strong, then look at an Ocean's Motion 4 way.

If you don't want to pay for a strong AC pump, then get some gyres and in-tank pumps and save yourself some trouble.

And your suggesting JUST the AmpMaster pump to run the 4 lines like i have it ? or do i still need to increase the diameter of the pipes to the loc-lines ?

 

[14 foot reef]

The Oceans motion 4 way is that a stand alone pump ? or do i need something else with this ?

Here is their website. They have been around forever. fabulous product and company, but most people moved away from CL's and these 4 ways, the birth of internal pumps like Ecotech and Tunze have most hobbyist going in that direction.

http://www.oceansmotions.com/

 

[14 foot reef]

And your suggesting JUST the AmpMaster pump to run the 4 lines like i have it ? or do i still need to increase the diameter of the pipes to the loc-lines ?

The CL should be all 1" line coming out, the suction side from sump should be 1 1/2". you also may want to look at the MRC pumps I sent a link of. Very quiet, and a very impressive build quality.

 

[BOWHUNTER4250]

Here is their website. They have been around forever. fabulous product and company, but most people moved away from CL's and these 4 ways, the birth of internal pumps like Ecotech and Tunze have most hobbyist going in that direction.

http://www.oceansmotions.com/

That video was cool , and i see that this will need a separate pump to feed this unit however it will push water thru only one side at a time which is a nice alternating flow ( if i were to get that size unit ) , the one in the video was a 4 way

 

[jda]

Most people do not keep larger tanks. Some of those flow pumps are a joke on larger tanks, especially with the costs and numbers needed. I have a friend with 8x4x4 tank and we replaced 4x mp60s with a single pump CL and it was more flow and more random. The best solution using in-tank stuff is larger tunze on Sea Sweep for random flow. While mp60 and Tunze 6255 are no joke, they peter out fast in tanks with lots of volume. This is why what somebody does in a small tank does not scale, even though their intentions are good when they are recommending things.

I would have the input and output of the pump be whatever the pump size is. If you do something like an Ampmaster, then 1" out of a 4 way is OK since this pump will not slow down into nothingness once you give is some back pressure. Lower diameter pumps mean velocity which mean flow in the tank.

There are a lot of good AC pumps. The ones mentioned, lifeguard and many other commercial models. There are a lot of rebranded models like the My Reef Creations one. I would look used and see if you can find some gently used stuff. I would not buy a ReeFlo/Sequence used since they do not last long anyway.

 

[naterealbig]

I wonder how many people here have actually used a CL? There is no head loss on a CL - they are closed systems. There is friction and pipe loss. I cannot believe that people are suggesting DC pumps. DC pumps are a joke on a CL unless they are powerful like a Abyzz. They only move the advertised water with no restrictions whatsoever and they slow down significantly with any type of back pressure. There is no way around this.

Suggesting DC pumps for a CL (there are a few at $1000+ price point) is almost as ridiculous as suggesting DC pumps for 30 foot head applications - you are going to end up with a AmpMaster (or the like) or else you will be unhappy, just like high head people end up with Iwaki or PanWorld or else they are unhappy.

I used to use spa flex for CLs to cut down on friction and elbows and stuff. Don't forget your unions near the pump so that you can take it out if you ever need to. Eductors can provide lots of flow if you have a strong pump - they are amazingly effective if you have velocity out of the nozzle. If you want 4 outlets and don't have the flow to keep the velocity strong, then look at an Ocean's Motion 4 way.

If you don't want to pay for a strong AC pump, then get some gyres and in-tank pumps and save yourself some trouble.

Hey @jda - I've been considering a closed loop system for my 6ft peninsula.... Mulling around the idea of 2 x Vectra L2s mounted to the back overflow pane (on 12 hr alternation). I know the DC pumps are wimpy, but take a gander at this article, and let me know your thoughts on this setup with large eductors...

https://reefbuilders.com/2020/05/14/high-water-flow-aquarium/

 

[jda]

I do not consider anything that Reef Builders says to be either objective or accurate, although it is not necessarily inaccurate - if you pay him and advertise with them, they will love on your stuff.

Eductors are the real deal if you can get some velocity going through them.

For your situation, how about a 1" sea swirl with an eductor and a single pump that can power through?

 

[naterealbig]

I do not consider anything that Reef Builders says to be either objective or accurate, although it is not necessarily inaccurate - if you pay him and advertise with them, they will love on your stuff.

Eductors are the real deal if you can get some velocity going through them.

For your situation, how about a 1" sea swirl with an eductor and a single pump that can power through?

Thanks @jda - I agree 100%, and, watching the flow in the video seemed convincing....

I like the sea swirls but was trying to avoid piping over the side (not my beautiful rimless! LOL) and loud pumps... The tank will be a shallow (72x48x20) barebottom, so I think a couple 6255's could handle it too. If I had my way I'd just buy 2x ECM63's and be done with it!