Closed & Stretching for weeks - months?

[Jonathan Presseau]

Hi all,

I have a 2 year old zoa tank which keeps me constantly confused. The tank is 23 gallons total w/ a 10g sump which runs an over sized skimmer as well as chemipure blue (changed every 2 months) and a filter sock (changed every water change). There is a 3g frag tank plumbed to the system and a 10g display tank. I run Nanobox LED's over both tanks. They run for 10 hours a day with 4 hours of peak intensity. See below graph which is essentially the same as the frag tank.



For awhile I was not running whites much at all. I have over the last month or 2 been increasing by 5% weekly the whites during about half the day. This has helped for sure, but not solving my issue for all of the zoas.

I test twice a week using the Sensafe iDip 570. I just checked all levels tonight and they are:

Alk @ 8.01 dKH
Ca @ 316 ppm
Mg @ 1330 ppm
PO4 @ < 0.02 ppm
NO3 @ < 3 ppm
Salt @ 1.028
Temp @ 78-80 degrees

I dose Calcium, but for some reason the coraline algae consumes a ton. I dose 8 ml daily trying to get it up! I only need to dose 5 ml a day of Alk to keep it at 8 dKH.

I had not realized, but my Mag had been very low. It was 1080 on Oct. 7th. I have dosed daily since and as of yesterday it is above 1300 ppm.

I usually keep my salt at 1.026 ppm, but I noticed recently that my Milwaukee needed calibrated big time. I have since increased it to 1.028 ppm by accident. I do not see the healthy zoas negatively reacting to this. FYI I use Aquacraft Marine Enviornment for my salt.

Below are some pictures where you will see zoas (more of the paly version) totally open and happy and then whole and partial colonies closed and stretching. They have been like this for as long as I can remember. They do not melt. It is crazy that it is only the smaller zoa's that do this. The paly types are fine. The very same zoas that are closed in my display are open in my frag tank.















This tank has been through a lot. I feel very seasoned in keeping zoas. As a side note I also have a mixed reef which is sps dominant that is doing great (2.5 years old). With that being said I am quite certain I do not have any pests. I have some flatworms in the frag tank, but they do not seem to bother the zoas. If they get out of hand I will toss the wrasse down there for a week and she will clean house.

I have been battling hair algae in just the frag tank for months. I was keeping the water very dirty by dosing various aminos, vitamins, dry coral foods and feeding the fish heavy. I was doing this in hopes it would help with the issue I am having with certain zoas simply not opening for weeks and months, but staying alive. Starting 4 weeks ago I stopped all of that and now feed the fish lightly in an effort to starve the hair algae of PO4. I have also been doing weekly 25% water changes to keep nutrients down during this "starvation period". It is working and the frag tank for the most part has happy zoas. I still find myself manually removing hair algae nearly every day after work. The problem I am facing is only with a few frags in the FT.

The display tank is a mixed bag. I battle vermetid snails which I feel are slowly dying off - they annoy the zoa's, but I do not think that is the root of my issue. I have removed any that I see around the zoas facing issues. As you can see from the pics the rock in the front which is mainly palys is doing just fine. Then the 2 towards the back which have more zoas are not. Tons of closed polyps which are stretching.

Does anybody have any advice? Is it time I move all of these into the shade to see if they are actually getting too much light even though they are stretching?

I have lurked this forum for awhile hoping I could come up with my own diagnosis, but I have not.

Thank you!

 

[mcarroll]

It seems like consistency in all aspects is what the tank is lacking.

Lighting
I would suggest a light meter so you can find out how much light you're putting into the tank – stop guessing and repeatedly adjusting the lights. You really need to know and corals really need to be able to adjust to a set level.

Chemistry
I wold also try to simplify things so all you're doing with the tank is feeding and water changes. I'm hoping that dosing is automated.....if not, you must dose at least once per day as your alkalinity and calcium test kits indicate. If alkalinity isn't dropping very fast, you might manage this with just water changes using an enhanced salt (e.g. Instant Ocean or Reef Crystals).

Nutrients
I would also consider keeping both PO4 and NO3 a bit higher if you can manage it. Around .03 to .05 ppm phosphates and nitrates ≥5 ppm. Don't go overboard, and certainly don't throw the whole cabinet of chemicals in the tank like before. Make small, simple changes and watch for the effects over some time – weeks at least – while monitoring PO4 and NO3 levels fairly closely. Keep after the algae with manual techniques. Try letting the algae grow on the glass for a week, or even a few weeks and see if that'll outcompete the other algae in the tank. (Win! This algae is easier to remove!)

Expectations
Zoanthids are IMO one of that hardest corals because of the very behavior you note....most of the time nobody can figure out why they're being moody. I have freinds and relatives if I want moody. ;) :D

I had a batch of gorilla nipple zoanthids as my very first coral. Watching them go through their namby-pamby little moods while all my SPS colonies in the same tank were booming was just comedy. Ultimately they faded away completely for no apparent reason. (I just wish my mushrooms would do the same...unfortunately, mushrooms are invincible. Another terrible "beginner coral".)

I'd never spend another cent on zoanthids. (....he says in the zoanthid forum. Doh!)

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

Hi and thanks for your response!

Lighting: I have used a PAR meter in the past and found it to be very low. For a long time I ran my lights at 80-90% for 10 hours. I have since changed to more of a natural curve. I do think this has helped. What I am confused about is I always read that if a zoa is streching it is looking for light. My guy tells me these guys are actually getting too much light and why they are stretching I have no clue...

Chemistry: I use the Neptune DOS. The 8 ml of Calcium is dosed evenly over 24 hours. The 5 ml of Alk is dosed during the 14 hours of lights out to help balance pH. For 4 weeks all I have done is water changes and feed the fish. I plan to continue this for a few more weeks. I have used IO in the past and found it to be garbage salt...

Nutrients: I will feed the fish more in an effort to get nutrients up. I could easily get them up by feeding something like Reef Roids, but again I am trying to starve the algae. Even when I had my NO3 @ 15 ppm and PO4 @ 0.40 ppm these zoas in question showed no ill or positive effects. I like your idea about letting the algae grow on the glass for awhile. Thank you for that! I have a conference this week and my GF will tend to the tanks so I will let the algae grow on the glass for 1-2 weeks and see how that helps. I also have various snails and hermits in the FT (Mexican Turbos are the best IMO for algae.).

Expectation: I fully agree with you on the difficulty. There are defintiely your very cheap zoas which grow like weeds, but try growing some Acid Reflux after fragging! I LOVE zoa's though and love my garden. Cannot wait for it to look like some of the pros on R2R!

Anybody else have any advice on the stretching while closed?

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

mcarroll,

As for the light meter. Would this be suitable? https://www.amazon.com/HDE-LX-1010B-Digital-Luxmeter-Display/dp/B00992B29I

 

[mcarroll]

Yup! That looks like what I use! :)

@saltyfilmfolks uses one that looks like these:
Trendbox Digital Light Meter Tester Luxmeter Luminometer Photometer High Accurate 200000 Lux/FC HS1010A with LCD display Handheld Portable
Docooler 200,000 Lux Digital LCD Pocket Light Meter Lux/FC Measure Tester

Not sure how they can have more functions and be even cheaper and still work, but that seems to be the case......higher range, data logging capability...not sure what else. Maybe salty can clarify how much those features are worth....but regardless, they don't seem to figure into the price. ;)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Some zoas like more light.
Zoas need more flow than most folks think.

Something seems to be stopping your tank from balancing its self.

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

I find the paly types (which are still zoas, not referring to grandis) which are always larger to like more light. I thought that the ones stretching also wanted more light, but after months of giving it to them no change...

I have an MP10QD in this tank and it runs about as high as it can before a sand storm. Interestingly enough the zoas which are in the path of the MP10 are all open. Time to play with the flow some!

Thank you for the input.

 

[mcarroll]

Hi and thanks for your response!

Lighting: I have used a PAR meter in the past and found it to be very low. For a long time I ran my lights at 80-90% for 10 hours. I have since changed to more of a natural curve. I do think this has helped. What I am confused about is I always read that if a zoa is streching it is looking for light. My guy tells me these guys are actually getting too much light and why they are stretching I have no clue...

Chemistry: I use the Neptune DOS. The 8 ml of Calcium is dosed evenly over 24 hours. The 5 ml of Alk is dosed during the 14 hours of lights out to help balance pH. For 4 weeks all I have done is water changes and feed the fish. I plan to continue this for a few more weeks. I have used IO in the past and found it to be garbage salt...

Nutrients: I will feed the fish more in an effort to get nutrients up. I could easily get them up by feeding something like Reef Roids, but again I am trying to starve the algae. Even when I had my NO3 @ 15 ppm and PO4 @ 0.40 ppm these zoas in question showed no ill or positive effects. I like your idea about letting the algae grow on the glass for awhile. Thank you for that! I have a conference this week and my GF will tend to the tanks so I will let the algae grow on the glass for 1-2 weeks and see how that helps. I also have various snails and hermits in the FT (Mexican Turbos are the best IMO for algae.).

Expectation: I fully agree with you on the difficulty. There are defintiely your very cheap zoas which grow like weeds, but try growing some Acid Reflux after fragging! I LOVE zoa's though and love my garden. Cannot wait for it to look like some of the pros on R2R!

Anybody else have any advice on the stretching while closed?

Light
Can you post some numbers? Lux or PAR is fine.....get a free lux meter if you have nothing. Give us an idea what peak lighting the tank sees now that you're doing sunrise/sunset dimming? Are you giving them a 12 hour day?

I am not claiming zoanthid expertise if that wasn't clear already, but I do know they will "tuck in" when flow is higher and make a much "looser" colony when flow is low. Any chance you're seeing the differences between high- and low-flow areas of the tank?

Chemistry
If you're using a standard two-part additive system, then you should be dosing equal parts of both. Is that what you're dosing?

Too many people use IO for it to be garbage.....something to consider, but doesn't mean you need to use it. There are options. :) And I admin I'm presuming that your current salt is a basic, natural seawater formula with relatively low alkalinity and calcium. I don't actually know that for sure.....using a fortified salt, like I said, was actually the main idea. :)

Nutrients
That should all help. :)

Nutrient levels kinda need to be in a balance with lighting and water flow, so you weren't necessarily on the wrong track altogether with the NO3 and PO4 levels....you might just not have had the full picture going yet.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Two part or kalk is the better way to go.
Easier to balance with nutrients.
If you slowly bump up light the animals will uptake the no and Po more. Try to use them to out compete the alge
A mild carbon dosing like vitamins c and bottled bacteria would prob not hurt.
I'd pull the chem filtration personally with numbers that low.

On algae. Once you've got it on the ropes from nutrien reduction scrub and siphon.

I'm also huge refugium believer.
Chato is good so are scrubbers. Calurpa some folks hate but if you get a big nutrients spike it explodes with growth.

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

Thanks again for continuing with your help :)!

Light: I will go home and check some numbers using my phone. Need to order the handheld meter. I currently run 10 hours rather than 12. I run peak for 4 of those hours. The other 6 are mainly ramping up. I like the blue look so that starts at 8 PM while I am usually home and then starting at 11:45 PM it starts to dim down to 0% at midnight. From 2-8 PM white and blues are on and ramping up.

Chemistry: The only reason I am not dosing the same amount of Alk (5 ml) as Ca (8 ml) is because i let my calcium get far too low. I used to only dose 1-2 ml a day. I use Acuacraft salt from California. I am pretty sure it is one of the better salt. It comes with a liquid supplement that you added during changes as well for trace elements. It mixes around 8 dKH which is the main reason I like it because I keep both of my tanks at this level. It also mixes fast and clean although I do allow 18-24 hours for it to mix just to be safe. I used to use Tropic Marin Pro and then switched to IO and had terrible result and then switched to Aqucraft.

I am a firm believer that corals like and need NO3 and PO4 and it is all about having the right amount of each (together with Carbon). I have done my best following Randy Holmes on the redfield ratio. My mixed reef runs very high levels (currently PO4 @ 0.61 ppm and NO3 @ 20 ppm). The SPS colors are on point. They seem to love the nutrients!

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

Two part or kalk is the better way to go.
Easier to balance with nutrients.
If you slowly bump up light the animals will uptake the no and Po more. Try to use them to out compete the alge
A mild carbon dosing like vitamins c and bottled bacteria would prob not hurt.
I'd pull the chem filtration personally with numbers that low.

On algae. Once you've got it on the ropes from nutrien reduction scrub and siphon.

I'm also huge refugium believer.
Chato is good so are scrubbers. Calurpa some folks hate but if you get a big nutrients spike it explodes with growth.

I do use 2 part from BRS. Use it in both tanks. Is that what you mean? Not sure if posts are crossing. :)

High light and high nutrients was actually what I was going for months ago, but then the algae took over and I simply could not manually remove it fast enough. That is when I stopped dosing Vitamarin C, PhytoChrome, Amino Acids (alternated between Polyplab, Brightwell and Fuel), Reef Roids & Reef Chili, Koral Color and Sustain (slow release Iodine). My current plan is to rid of the hair algae 100% and then slowly start dosing again. I still am not able to syphon so I am plucking it off the plugs and frag racks with long tweezers.

I do not have room in my sump for a proper fuge. Just not enough space. :( This would be a huge help right now for the algae...

 

[mcarroll]

30-60 minutes seems like enough of a sunrise from what I can tell. Ramping up to 60-80% of max for another hour and then ramping up to peak and back down for another hour at the end using 60-80% and then another hour to thirty minutes for sunset.

I think the white/blue can be to your preference, but it seems to me like light always shifts from red to blue at sunrise and blue to red and sunset. I guess twilight (pre-sunrise and post-sunset) is also fairly blue, but not very bright at all.

High light and high nutrients was actually what I was going for months ago, but then the algae took over and I simply could not manually remove it fast enough. That is when I stopped dosing Vitamarin C, PhytoChrome, Amino Acids (alternated between Polyplab, Brightwell and Fuel), Reef Roids & Reef Chili, Koral Color and Sustain (slow release Iodine).

Nine miscellaneous additives!?!?!? Wow. :)

That was just too much of a good thing – the shotgun approach – not the wrong basic strategy. :) A more targeted, conservative approach would likely have changed the whole scenario in your favor.

However, I think I said that already, and you already changed course! :D

It will be interesting to see how things develop! :)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea I think thats too much of the same foods.
Some trace elements and fish poop have been the best success I've seen. Then the other stuff as a treat or snack.

A lot of that is just feeding bacteria what's left is probably sugars.

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

I was gifted a lot of them to try out. My problem is I went all in right off the bat trying to dirty the water. My lack of experience left me naive to the fact I was feeding the bacteria and algae at the very same time. A good friend is the one who insisted I stop everything for a month. She was write!

 

[mcarroll]

I think the key to remember is that all of these critters – coral, algae, bacteria, etc – are all from a nutrient-poor environment. That means they are really good at conserving nutrients once they have them. These nutrients pool or cycle around the system, vs dissolving back into the water. (A "nutrient cycle".)

All you really have to do is fill up those pools and cycles.....you don't really need a particular number on a test kit.

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

I think the key to remember is that all of these critters – coral, algae, bacteria, etc – are all from a nutrient-poor environment. That means they are really good at conserving nutrients once they have them. These nutrients pool or cycle around the system, vs dissolving back into the water. (A "nutrient cycle".)

All you really have to do is fill up those pools and cycles.....you don't really need a particular number on a test kit.

That is a good perspective thank you!

So I downloaded a Lux meter for my phone (highest rated one on the App store) and I am confused by the readings. I found a post you contributed to a few years ago stating "For example, nobody would have a problem discerning with a lux meter whether they were providing overcast, full sun or direct sun levels to their reef. Which is actually handy to know! Makes light acclimation much less of a mystery. Start under overcast skies (~1000 lux) with breaks of full sun (~10000 lux), eventually providing direct sun (>30,000 lux). And you can quantify the levels you are actually providing as you go!"

The reading I am finding are around 200-300 at the water line?

FWIW here are the PAR readings from the LED manufacturer. He is a friend of mine and I trust the readings to be accurate.

My frag tank has the Nanobox Mini 6" above the water line.

My display tank has the Nanobox Duo 10" above the water line.

 

[mcarroll]

Usually the apps have an option to use the front or back camera–you might have to throw a switch or hit a button to make it use the front camera. That way you can see the screen/readings while you use it.

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

Right, I tried both the front and back camera and they seem to give the same results even though using the back is quite challenging (obviously).

I can swith between Indoors and Outdoors as well. Here is a screenshot using Outdoor on the display tank by moving it all around the surface of the water to get a good average reading.



As you can see the outdoor makes it much higher, but still far less than you show. That is at 100% whites and blues too!

 

[mcarroll]

Hm...some apps just aren't compatible with a given camera or light sensor. I'd try a different app. If you're on IOS, have you tried "galactica luxmeter"? It's gotten some good feedback from users here.

 

[Jonathan Presseau]

Just tried that one and highest I could get at the water line was 1,700. If I hold the camera an inch below the LED is reads 140,000. This is at 100% whites and blues too.