Concentration tropic marin trace

[Hans-Werner]

Are there any learnings from calculations and experiments that led to all-for-reef that could be shared fordosing trace a and k? The label instructions for trace a and k are quite wide.

When using Original Balling with K+ and A- Elements, prepare Part A (calcium) for one liter to 950 ml solution and add 50 ml K+ Elements. Then prepare Part B (alkalinity) for one liter to 950 ml solution and add 50 ml A- Elements.

These are the same proportions as in All-For-Reef, just applied to Original Balling. :)

 

[Koty]

When using Original Balling with K+ and A- Elements, prepare Part A (calcium) for one liter to 950 ml solution and add 50 ml K+ Elements. Then prepare Part B (alkalinity) for one liter to 950 ml solution and add 50 ml A- Elements.

These are the same proportions as in All-For-Reef, just applied to Original Balling. :)

I would also add 50 ml rodi water to part C

 

[Bakki]

When using Original Balling with K+ and A- Elements, prepare Part A (calcium) for one liter to 950 ml solution and add 50 ml K+ Elements. Then prepare Part B (alkalinity) for one liter to 950 ml solution and add 50 ml A- Elements.

These are the same proportions as in All-For-Reef, just applied to Original Balling. :)

Thank you very much, this is exactly what i was looking for!

 

[ukgeoff]

The concentration of trace elements in these products differs. The concentration of trace elements in the A and K products is much higher, which means it's easier to overdose trace elements using A and K. The all-for-reef is more diluted, and in theory, all-for-reef is a gentler method of adding trace elements.

The recommended dose for all-for-reef is to start at 5ml per 100 litres and not to exceed 25ml per 100 litres.

The recommended dose for A and K is 1ml per 100 litres, with a big, bold warning in uppercase letters on the label to never exceed 2ml per 100 litres. This means it's far easier to overdose trace elements using A and K elements if not carefully measured or your tank demand isn't there. I always presumed trace elements were biotic organisms, and it's only through this post that I now understand that they are non-organic elements of the periodic table, containing metals. Adding too much to your water can have the dangerous consequences of eventually building up and, in theory, poisoning your tank.

I use all-for-reef to keep my alkalinity stable. I dose of 10ml per 100 litres, which keeps my tank stable at 8.5dKh. I have no idea how the 10ml of all-for-reef covers my trace element demand, as it's not easy to measure trace elements accurately. My last ICP test confirmed all my trace elements were fine, but I've now read even ICP tests can't provide accurate readings, making it very difficult to work out trace element dosing requirements.

With no way to accurately measure trace elements, who knows what to do? Sticking to weekly water changes is probably the best way to go.

 

[Koty]

I think you got it a bit wrong. The trace elements in AFR are to ensure that the little seawater you add to compensate for the Alk and Ca consumption is to keep the seawater composition and not take into account trace elements uptake by the creatures in your tank. As your tank volume is finite unlike the sea you have to add trace elements unless you do a lot of WCs. Many trace elements disappear quickly from the water column by uptake and many other complex processes. I have been adding 4 ml each of A and K daily to my 100g tank for over a year and without any water changes and I have no apparent issues. Notably since I started, my Cheato started to grow like crazy. This is my tank:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think you got it a bit wrong. The trace elements in AFR are to ensure that the little seawater you add to compensate for the Alk and Ca consumption is to keep the seawater composition and not take into account trace elements uptake by the creatures in your tank. As your tank volume is finite unlike the sea you have to add trace elements unless you do a lot of WCs. Many trace elements disappear quickly from the water column by uptake and many other complex processes. I have been adding 4 ml each of A and K daily to my 100g tank for over a year and without any water changes and I have no apparent issues. Notably since I started, my Cheato started to grow like crazy. This is my tank:

I believe that you are thinking of the Balling Method, A, B, and C to balance out ions.

Any trace elements in AFR are there to offset consumption. Calcium formate does not need the equivalent of Balling Part C in it.

 

[Koty]

I believe that you are thinking of the Balling Method, A, B, and C to balance out ions.

Any trace elements in AFR are there to offset consumption. Calcium formate does not need the equivalent of Balling Part C in it.

I understand that, but I recall that Hans Werner said that AFR does require additional trace elements in the form of their A & K elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I understand that, but I recall that Hans Werner said that AFR does require additional trace elements in the form of their A & K elements.

It may well. It obviously does in some settings, like a tank with lots of soft corals and macroaglae and little alk demand so little AFR is being used.

But that is more trace elements to offset more consumption relative to what AFR is adding already to offset "average" consumption.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I understand that, but I recall that Hans Werner said that AFR does require additional trace elements in the form of their A & K elements.

Randy is explaining it exactly correct. For the "average reef aquarium" the trace elements are included in and dosed with the All-For-Reef but not with Original Balling where they have to be added extra with the K+ and A- Elements.

 

[UndergroundReefs]

Been using all for reef for years with great success. switching to two part with A- and K+ for the pH benefits. I have a very nice CO2 scrubber system and still not getting above 8.1 at the peak. Anywho, just coming to the conversation to point out that a 1000 mL container of A- and K+ makes 5 gallons of two part. I guess you could do 200 mL per gallon as well. Sorry Hans, I like my "gallon" as a unit of measurement as well. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

50ml : 950ml = 996.16 mL : 5 gallons
or
50mL:950mL = 199.23 mL : 1 gallon

 

[Hans-Werner]

Been using all for reef for years with great success. switching to two part with A- and K+ for the pH benefits. I have a very nice CO2 scrubber system and still not getting above 8.1 at the peak. Anywho, just coming to the conversation to point out that a 1000 mL container of A- and K+ makes 5 gallons of two part. I guess you could do 200 mL per gallon as well. Sorry Hans, I like my "gallon" as a unit of measurement as well. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

50ml : 950ml = 996.16 mL : 5 gallons
or
50mL:950mL = 199.23 mL : 1 gallon

Thank you for the calculation! Good idea!

 

[mboley]

I just bought A and K Elements and use Randy's two part recipe. Can I just mix the Elements in with my gallon jug of stock solution or should I mix it in when I replenish my 1 liter dosing container?

And as my Alk and Calc demands rise leave the ratio (950 to 50ml) as is?

 

[Anxur]

Yes, it is like Randy stated, it are the same trace elements in concentrations which are the result of calculation and experimentation to supply the essential trace elements in proportion to calcium and alkalinity.

I think other trace elements than included in K+ and A- Elements and All-For-Reef are not needed. They contain the trace elements necessary for biological processes.

How was it possible to not have potassium in All For Reef? Did you have any chemistry-related reasons?? Potassium is certainly important and has a greater value in sea water than calcium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How was it possible to not have potassium in All For Reef? Did you have any chemistry-related reasons?? Potassium is certainly important and has a greater value in sea water than calcium.

Potassium does not necessarily decline in a reef. Mine never did. It depends on how much is in the foods you feed relative to the new tissue growth in the tank.

 

[Koty]

Potassium does not necessarily decline in a reef. Mine never did. It depends on how much is in the foods you feed relative to the new tissue growth in the tank.

Well yes it does at least in my tank and I have to supplement it regularly:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well yes it does at least in my tank and I have to supplement it regularly:

It’s certainly appropriate to dose it if it does decline. I can’t see a scale on the graph to know what size changes you are seeing. How are you measuring it?

 

[Koty]

I use the Saifert kit

THis is the full history

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I use the Saifert kit

THis is the full history

How much of what do you dose?

 

[Koty]

I dose the TM Potassium according to their instructions, assuming I have a net total of 400 liters.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I dose the TM Potassium according to their instructions, assuming I have a net total of 400 liters.

OK, well, sounds like a fine thing to continue. :)