Confused - BRS video

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just watched the brs video as well. Glad I found this thread. So out of curiosity, if I switch my 2 part with Tropic Marins all in one powder. Will i have to do water changes? If my nitrates and phosphates are fine. The dosing of the tropic marin powder should maintain everything else right?

Water changes are hotly debated and really are not necessarily related to using a two part (since some are chemically balanced just fine). TM All in One does not remove all reasons for water changes any more than using ESV two part does.

Removing accumulating chemicals is often best attained by water change.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been testing calcium and magnesium as well and they are staying pretty stable. Alkalinity is the only thing dropping. This is assuming I am testing correctly.

There are some reasons alk drops that doesn't involve calcium (especially nitrate accumulation or a sulfur denitrator), but if those are not the cause, then it is likely just that you do not see it against the impacts of water changes.

Alk always "appears" to drop faster:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.

 

[Coolcasino]

It does, but only to deal with Type 1 issues I describe above, and not Type 2 issues also described above.

I was actually referencing type 2 but honestly I thought type 1 and type 2 were kind of the same.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was actually referencing type 2 but honestly I thought type 1 and type 2 were kind of the same.

Many people confuse them and hence are confused about trace elements in a product like ESV two part or Balling Part C.

 

[areefer01]

Many people confuse them and hence are confused about trace elements in a product like ESV two part or Balling Part C.

Maybe I missed it between the 2 pages here but ESV 2 part also has trace elements I thought. Tropic Marin 2 part does not which is why you can add C. Maybe I'm mixing up the products. Sorry.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe I missed it between the 2 pages here but ESV 2 part also has trace elements I thought. Tropic Marin 2 part does not which is why you can add C. Maybe I'm mixing up the products. Sorry.

Yes. Read my post about that above. ESV and Balling Part C have the type 1 trace elements, but no type 2 trace elements.

 

[MichaelReefer]

Just watched a BRS video explaining problems with traditional two part dosing and the balling method.

Will my regular water changes not help replenish trace elements? Currently dosing soda ash for alkalinity since that is the only thing being depleted. If not, can I do Tropic Marine All For Reef? Wouldn’t that mean my calcium and mag levels would increase unnecessarily?

Some of us (like me), dont do water changes... I dose 2 part as well as Trace elements. Havent done a water change in over a year.

 

[Coolcasino]

So for those of us that dose ESV 2 part what would be a good trace additive to use if any, or do we have to just test everything and dose each individual element?

 

[Wes Allsbrook]

I do not watch BRS videos, but I can details exactly what the two different issues are here.

1. When you dose calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide for calcium and alk, there is a residue of sodium and chloride that accumulates. That slowly raises salintiy, and when a reefer maintains salinity by rwducing it a bit, everything in the water gets pushed down. That includes major ions such as potassium and sulfate, minor ions like fluoride, and trace elements such as iron and manganese.

There are several possible ways to deal with that decline.

A. Put all of those other ions into one of the two parts. Products like ESV B-ionic do that.
B. Put all of those ions into a third part. Products like Balling Part C do that.
C. Put some of the most important (but not all) of those ions into a third part . My third part does that for magnesium and sulfate.
D. Rely on water changes to keep elements from drifting too much from this effect. It works, but is not as effective as A-C.

2. The second issue is how to replace elements lost to consumption that is unrelated to the use of the two part, and is driven by other processes, such as precipitation, element uptake by organisms, removal by media or skimmers, etc.

Again, there are several ways to deal with that decline:

A. Put some of those depleted ions into the into one of the two parts of a two part. A variety of commercial two parts make this claim (not ESV).
B. Put some of those depleted ions a third part. Products like AF mineral salt may claim to do this. Balling Part C does not.
C. Put some of the most important (but not all) of those ions into a third part . My third part does that for real depletion of magnesium.
D. Rely on food additions and water changes to keep elements from drifting too much from this effect. It works, but is not as chemically complete as A-C or E below.
E. Dose one or more element supplements to replace what is consumed. Note that the recipe for 2E must be very different than the recipe for issues relating to part 1.

Thank you very much for your detailed responses. Would you be willing to share what solution you use for the two issues above?

 

[areefer01]

Yes. Read my post about that above. ESV and Balling Part C have the type 1 trace elements, but no type 2 trace elements.

Will do and thank you. Have a great day!