Constant High Alkalinity and Phosphate

[uscggirl]

Hello everyone. I have a situation where my Alkalinity and Phosphate stay high. I’ve tried to read all the posts having anything to do with Alkalinity, but it seems most people want to keep it raised, while I’d like to get it lower. I’ve tried dosing some vinegar, and that helped for a day, but it went way up again. From 11.8 to 13.9 in under 16 hours. My Salinity and Ph stay stable at 1.025 and 7.8 respectively. I’d like to increase Ph, but want to get the Alkalinity sorted first. I am new to saltwater and spent a few years with freshwater. I’m only running a 10 gallon tank with HOB and UV filter for now while I learn and make plans for tank size and equipment. Other parameters are pretty much on target with Calcium finally rising from 348 on April 6, to 480 today. I’ve read I need to stop dosing, but I haven’t dosed anything. I do have some Phosguard in my HOB in hopes it will lower Phosphate. Not really helping though. Any ideas or suggestions are most welcome! Stock is currently 2 clowns, 3 yellow damsels, 1 blue damsel, and emerald crab If that helps. I’ve been doing a two gallon water change every other day.

 

[uscggirl]

Vinegar is not even a treatment for high alk, so I'd suggest stopping that effort. It does not lower alk for more than a short period, then it all comes back as the vinegar is consumed.

Thank you! I dosed twice, and as you said, it was only a short fix. The long term solution is certainly what I need to shoot for. I greatly appreciate your insights and assistance!

 

[uscggirl]

How do you replace evaporated water? Tap water? RO/DI?

No tap water use here. RODI water or the premixed saltwater is all I’ve used. My tap water would no doubt kill everything with its TDS of 395 and all the chemicals.

 

[uscggirl]

Declining nitrate will boost alkalinity. A 50 ppm decline in nitrate (by consumption) will boost alk by 2.3 dKH.

I‘ve read a few of your articles on reef chemistry, and should’ve been able to extrapolate that impact from Nitrates so that if decreased nitrates raises alkalinity, then no nitrates will most certainly keep it high. Adding nitrates could then have the intended effect I’m looking for of lowering the alkalinity. When I dose nitrates (since over feeding isn’t working), should I wait until the following day to dose a phosphate remover? Or can they safely be used the same day?

 

[minus9]

I would find a way to raise your pH, maybe add a hob skimmer or refugium. Test your pH first thing in the morning before the lights come, this will be the lowest point. I suspect your pH is dropping at night and creating an environment similar to a calcium reactor, raising your alk. But this is just a guess.

 

[uscggirl]

I would find a way to raise your pH, maybe add a hob skimmer or refugium. Test your pH first thing in the morning before the lights come, this will be the lowest point. I suspect your pH is dropping at night and creating an environment similar to a calcium reactor, raising your alk. But this is just a guess.

Ph is certainly low, and measuring first thing in the morning is a great suggestion! I had intended this 10 gallon tank as just a QT for the primary tank, however, the primary tank was unexpectedly delayed by two months in shipping, and then I cancelled it and went with another tank. Still awaiting that arrival, so in the meantime, the 10 gallon has progressed into as regular a set up as I can manage. Obviously should’ve waited until I had a main tank set up before adding anything into quarantine! Nevertheless, here we are, and I’m determined to keep the fish alive in a good stable environment until they move to their permanent tank. An HOB refugium is a good idea, and it can serve to establish macro algae that can be transferred into the primary tank once it’s here as well. Thank you for taking the time to read my saga and offering your thoughts!! Much appreciated!!

 

[Reefer Reboot]

It’s all premixed in a four gallon jug from Nature’s Ocean. I drop a heater in it when I know I’ll be doing a water change, and when it’s heated up enough to not shock the fish with the temp change, I just shake it up a bit in case anything has settled or separated. I have RODI water to dilute if needed, but it’s just a RODI unit that goes to my refrigerator for fresh drinking water. Tap water here is awful!!

The RODI unit that goes to your refrigerator, are you tapping off of the RO portion to feed your refrigerator? The reason I'm asking is to make sure it is an RODI unit and not just an RO unit.

 

[uscggirl]

The RODI unit that goes to your refrigerator, are you tapping off of the RO portion to feed your refrigerator? The reason I'm asking is to make sure it is an RODI unit and not just an RO unit.

Full RODI, but only goes to a small holding tank for the frig. Thinking of setting up a separate system set up for reef use, but need to figure out how! The one for the frig was installed by a plumber, so maybe back to him again. Also need to decide placement. basement (stairs), or garage (will need a heater for the water). Garage has heat and faucet, so maybe out there would be best. I wish I could do plumbing!!

 

[uscggirl]

Full RODI, but only goes to a small holding tank for the frig. Thinking of setting up a separate system set up for reef use, but need to figure out how! The one for the frig was installed by a plumber, so maybe back to him again. Also need to decide placement. basement (stairs), or garage (will need a heater for the water). Garage has heat and faucet, so maybe out there would be best. I wish I could do plumbing!!

I suppose I could upgrade the basement unit to produce more water and put a larger holding tank for that down there with it. Would save on keeping RODI water warm in the garage....

 

[Uncle99]

I’d love to increase the Magnesium, but I’m worried about adding anything at this point. What’s the best way to increase the MG? A specific product?

Your numbers appear to fluctuate a lot.
Sometimes you post salinity at 1.027 and then 1.026. In addition, you post readings at different times.

This in itself, will throw out your readings, you should always stick to 1.026, mix to 1.026, and I don’t test for 24 hours.

I must wonder if your calibration on your refractometer is just way off as well.

I’d firstly get some calibration solution to check your refractometer is accurate to 1.026 (35ppt).

If this is a new tank you should not be dosing anything at all, just weekly water changes in the 10%-15% range.

Buy salt that when mixed to 1.026, results in your desired range, in terms of Alk, CA and MG.

Example. My Fritz Redline salt, when mixed with pure Zero TDS water, results in an Alk of 12dkh, CA of 465ppm, and MG of 1410ppm. This is also what the manufacture expects. This is not a sales pitch, just an example, I prefer running on the high end.

If I did not have a ton of Stoney corals which eats up all three, and I made 3, 33% water changes, 1 each day, I should end up with those numbers above.

Some salts are deficient in MG, and this IMM is problematic as MG is the “magic” that prevents the other two from just coming together and precipitated out of the solution, which, would affect your measuring, assuming that your measuring tool is accurate to begin with.

All the chemical guys, Red Sea, Seachem, Aquaforest, AquaVitro (ions) make an easy to deploy liquid for increasing MG.

Sorry, just seems your running in circles.

 

[anthonygf]

Hello uscggirl; Are you in the Coast Guard? I have been using Sea-Lab No. 28 automatic replenisher for 5 years now and my Mag and calcium have been stable without dosing. Drop a block or two in tank or sump every couple of weeks or so depending on when the blocks are almost dissolved. I don't have any auto dosers on my 75 gallon so I need to dose other stuff for alk, phyto, etc by hand. I am retired so can do this every day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I‘ve read a few of your articles on reef chemistry, and should’ve been able to extrapolate that impact from Nitrates so that if decreased nitrates raises alkalinity, then no nitrates will most certainly keep it high. Adding nitrates could then have the intended effect I’m looking for of lowering the alkalinity. When I dose nitrates (since over feeding isn’t working), should I wait until the following day to dose a phosphate remover? Or can they safely be used the same day?

It's not a matter that nitrate is high or low, it is the actual decline that increases alk. If nitrate is always 0, then it won't impact alkalinity.

 

[uscggirl]

Your numbers appear to fluctuate a lot.
Sometimes you post salinity at 1.027 and then 1.026. In addition, you post readings at different times.

This in itself, will throw out your readings, you should always stick to 1.026, mix to 1.026, and I don’t test for 24 hours.

I must wonder if your calibration on your refractometer is just way off as well.

I’d firstly get some calibration solution to check your refractometer is accurate to 1.026 (35ppt).

If this is a new tank you should not be dosing anything at all, just weekly water changes in the 10%-15% range.

Buy salt that when mixed to 1.026, results in your desired range, in terms of Alk, CA and MG.

Example. My Fritz Redline salt, when mixed with pure Zero TDS water, results in an Alk of 12dkh, CA of 465ppm, and MG of 1410ppm. This is also what the manufacture expects. This is not a sales pitch, just an example, I prefer running on the high end.

If I did not have a ton of Stoney corals which eats up all three, and I made 3, 33% water changes, 1 each day, I should end up with those numbers above.

Some salts are deficient in MG, and this IMM is problematic as MG is the “magic” that prevents the other two from just coming together and precipitated out of the solution, which, would affect your measuring, assuming that your measuring tool is accurate to begin with.

All the chemical guys, Red Sea, Seachem, Aquaforest, AquaVitro (ions) make an easy to deploy liquid for increasing MG.

Sorry, just seems your running in circles.

No worries, and I appreciate all input! I’m using premixed saltwater by Nature’s Ocean for now because a 20% water change is only two gallons. Larger tank on the way, but the 10 gallon is it for now. I check salinity using the Hanna Salinity/Temp tester. I calibrate it every four days since I’m using it frequently. The premixed saltwater has good levels as I’ve tested for them, with the exception of MG low at 1140. Salinity is 1.027, but I add a bit of RODI water to bring it down. Ph is a bit low at 7.78, Alkalinity is 7.7, and Calcium is 480. Oh, and Phosphates are 0.05. So right after I’ve done a water change, my parameters look a bit better, but by the next day alkalinity is up, phosphates are up, magnesium does adjust up a bit, calcium drops a slight bit, but the rest are reasonably stable. I certainly need to find a specific time of day to test and stick with it for continuity, and I won’t be testing right after water changes anymore as that isn’t a true picture of my water. I do test frequently as I’m trying to get phosphates and alkalinity into the recommended ranges. I use Hanna checkers for everything except magnesium, and I use Salifert for that with care to be precise in my steps. The tank has been running for three months, but has only had inhabitants for three weeks. When I first added them, my Alkalinity and Phosphates were both reasonably good at 8.4 and 0.12. Now they are both too high, and it seems my lack of nitrates and continued low magnesium may be the issue. I’ll dose some nitrates and magnesium, wait a bit to see if that helps, and go from there. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions!! I appreciate your input.

 

[uscggirl]

Hello uscggirl; Are you in the Coast Guard? I have been using Sea-Lab No. 28 automatic replenisher for 5 years now and my Mag and calcium have been stable without dosing. Drop a block or two in tank or sump every couple of weeks or so depending on when the blocks are almost dissolved. I don't have any auto dosers on my 75 gallon so I need to dose other stuff for alk, phyto, etc by hand. I am retired so can do this every day.

Hello there fellow retiree!! I’m also retired after 29 years of active duty, so I’m no longer in the Coast Guard. And now I have time to work on my new found hobby! I had freshwater for awhile but wanted to get into reefing which clearly requires more learning and every day challenges. I was missing challenges, and now I may have stepped into a giant sea of them. Thank you for your suggestion of the Sea-Lab product!! I’ll definitely look into that for maintaining some stability in this tiny tank, and then in the primary tank once it’s established.

 

[uscggirl]

It's not a matter that nitrate is high or low, it is the actual decline that increases alk. If nitrate is always 0, then it won't impact alkalinity.

Okay, I see. So the chemical process of nitrates decreasing is what will cause the alkalinity to go up. I guess I need to sort out the increasing and decreasing variables between my replacement water and the current tank water to determine what reactions are causing my Alk to go way up from 7.7 in the premixed saltwater to over 15 once it’s been in the tank for a few hours. Thank you very much for your continued input as I sort through this!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay, I see. So the chemical process of nitrates decreasing is what will cause the alkalinity to go up. I guess I need to sort out the increasing and decreasing variables between my replacement water and the current tank water to determine what reactions are causing my Alk to go way up from 7.7 in the premixed saltwater to over 15 once it’s been in the tank for a few hours. Thank you very much for your continued input as I sort through this!!

Right. Stable alk at any level does not impact alkalinity. Rising or falling nitrate does.

 

[anthonygf]

Hello there fellow retiree!! I’m also retired after 29 years of active duty, so I’m no longer in the Coast Guard. And now I have time to work on my new found hobby! I had freshwater for awhile but wanted to get into reefing which clearly requires more learning and every day challenges. I was missing challenges, and now I may have stepped into a giant sea of them. Thank you for your suggestion of the Sea-Lab product!! I’ll definitely look into that for maintaining some stability in this tiny tank, and then in the primary tank once it’s established.

Thank you for your service. Good luck with your reef adventures and enjoy. There is a lot to learn, still learning after 7 years. Still doing fresh, South American Cichlids for 40 years. Love both fresh and salt.

 

[uscggirl]

Thank you for your service. Good luck with your reef adventures and enjoy. There is a lot to learn, still learning after 7 years. Still doing fresh, South American Cichlids for 40 years. Love both fresh and salt.

Thank you! Serving was definitely an honor and a joy. Loved my career and would’ve stayed longer if a couple strokes hadn’t knocked me for a loop! But I’m getting better...well maybe not the brain processing part as evidenced by my ongoing battle with Alk and Phosphates. I’m sure that South African Cichlid tank has a lot going on! Fresh was fun, and I primarily had Discus in a semi planted tank. I used a Fluval canister filter for that one and as long as I kept it clean with media changes, it kept the water pretty stable for the fish. This reef venture is a whole new animal (pun intended), and I’m looking forward to at least getting the basics sorted after months of reading and lurking through this forum!! Thank you again for your assistance with that goal!

 

[anthonygf]

Thank you! Serving was definitely an honor and a joy. Loved my career and would’ve stayed longer if a couple strokes hadn’t knocked me for a loop! But I’m getting better...well maybe not the brain processing part as evidenced by my ongoing battle with Alk and Phosphates. I’m sure that South African Cichlid tank has a lot going on! Fresh was fun, and I primarily had Discus in a semi planted tank. I used a Fluval canister filter for that one and as long as I kept it clean with media changes, it kept the water pretty stable for the fish. This reef venture is a whole new animal (pun intended), and I’m looking forward to at least getting the basics sorted after months of reading and lurking through this forum!! Thank you again for your assistance with that goal!

It takes time to get it right, you definitely need patience. When I first started I tested all parameters daily just to get an understanding of how the chemistry works in a reef system. Test and dose alk daily, test mag and cal and nitrate once a week, I have a temp and ph monitor, I check salinity daily and keep it at 1.026. I have been testing phosphate daily now just because it was dropping too low since I started dosing iron supplement which I am going to discontinue.
My 46 gal bowfront was about 6 years old then transferred to 75 gallon in December last year. The 75 last month pic #2. Went through a small ugly phase because after the transfer I had an aiptasia outbreak, removed all rocks and cleaned for a week while removing some aip's left in sand. You see the monti behind the YT, it was destroyed by my hermit crabs. they would all congregate on it and break off branches. Got rid of all my hermits, just snails from now on. Something to think about. The hermits left me with many frags, this was the only sps that grow for me. My clam is growing well.

 

[uscggirl]

It takes time to get it right, you definitely need patience. When I first started I tested all parameters daily just to get an understanding of how the chemistry works in a reef system. Test and dose alk daily, test mag and cal and nitrate once a week, I have a temp and ph monitor, I check salinity daily and keep it at 1.026. I have been testing phosphate daily now just because it was dropping too low since I started dosing iron supplement which I am going to discontinue.
My 46 gal bowfront was about 6 years old then transferred to 75 gallon in December last year. The 75 last month pic #2. Went through a small ugly phase because after the transfer I had an aiptasia outbreak, removed all rocks and cleaned for a week while removing some aip's left in sand. You see the monti behind the YT, it was destroyed by my hermit crabs. they would all congregate on it and break off branches. Got rid of all my hermits, just snails from now on. Something to think about. The hermits left me with many frags, this was the only sps that grow for me. My clam is growing well.

I almost got a hermit, but read about their destructive tendencies and held off. I was hoping it would clean up detritus for me, but I guess I’ll do that myself. Your tanks are great!! So pretty . I’d like clam or two once the main tank has been up and running awhile. I’ve gone back and forth between sump and AIO so many times, it’s caused part of the main tank delay. Sump seems like easier access to me, because the AIO section is usually in the back of the tank. But sump is also more complicated, more expensive, and has more failure points for leaks from what I can tell. But certainly more room and flexibility. I’ve got a 60 long AIO ready to go from Innovative Marine, but have until this weekend if I want to change my mind to a sump. But for now, the focus is on balancing the tank I have so the inhabitants are comfortable.

 

[anthonygf]

I almost got a hermit, but read about their destructive tendencies and held off. I was hoping it would clean up detritus for me, but I guess I’ll do that myself. Your tanks are great!! So pretty . I’d like clam or two once the main tank has been up and running awhile. I’ve gone back and forth between sump and AIO so many times, it’s caused part of the main tank delay. Sump seems like easier access to me, because the AIO section is usually in the back of the tank. But sump is also more complicated, more expensive, and has more failure points for leaks from what I can tell. But certainly more room and flexibility. I’ve got a 60 long AIO ready to go from Innovative Marine, but have until this weekend if I want to change my mind to a sump. But for now, the focus is on balancing the tank I have so the inhabitants are comfortable.

Sounds good. When I first started I did not have a sump. I had a small wet/dry type of canister filter because the 46 bowfront was fresh water setup before changing to salt. There is no rush, you can take your time and build the system as you go or do what experienced reefers do and get all the equipment needed before hand but that is very expensive and you need experience to know what you need.

Edit; And thanks for the compliment.