Constantly Failing At SPS What Am I Missing?

[RMS18]

There are three stages of the ZEOvit system... Stage 1 is just starting out fresh with a new tank (where you were). Stage 2 is when your system is running ZEOvit but is not ULN yet, or established tanks just starting ZEOvit. Stage 3 is when your system is running ZEOvit and is a stable ULN.

You are in stage 2, so please keep that in mind. As you started your tank with dry rock, it’s likely you will be in stage 2 for much longer than if you had started it with live rock... this has been my experience at least. It’s not an issue, it’s just extremely helpful to keep this in mind and adjust your system accordingly.

It is recommended that you alternate between 3 hours on and 3 hours off all day every day when you are running ZEOvit in a nutrient rich environment.

What is your dosage of ZEOvit media (sorry if you already said and I missed it)? As you are in stage 2, you should be running 1 liter or ZEOvit per 150 gallons net water volume.

That's so strange about the reactor being on and off at 3 hours intervals. It's not that i don't believe you but having started my tank following Alexanders instructions when the Zeovit community was fully aware of my set with live sand and dry rock this is news to me. If i did this reactor change this wouldn't spike my po4 and po3? I am using a few rocks over a half of bag to cover my 55 gallons. I also have the flow adjusted to the correct flow rate. I'm sorry i do not remember that number off hand, i'd have to look at my thread on zeovit forum... If i had to guess i think i was around 60-65 gph.

 

[RMS18]

Not to take away from further investigating your source water, but have you considered a coral bacterial infection? It's something not too many reefers list as a possibility, especially when all the parameters look stable enough, such as in your case. Exact causes are relatively unknown but the effects are well documented.

Joe Yaiullo and several researchers have discussed a doxycycline treatment as an option. It's usually a 24-hour treatment cycle and can be repeated after a week. I, myself, have gone through what you are experiencing now and have turned things around for the better after a 2-time doxycycline cycle. But, please note, this was based off my own experience from the advice of Joe Yaiullo, so the end result might be completely different for you.

Also, don't expect instant results, but rather a "lessened" occurrence of the RTN/STN episodes. Not to say that you'll never have a coral die after trying this option, but it is one more variable to eliminate. The plus side of it is that there is very little, if any, side effect of dosing directly into the display tank. So therefore, why not try it. Might be worth a shot, before you start messing with the kitchen sink drains.

Attached is the exact instruction I was given direct from Joe, himself.

Safe for fish and inverts?

 

[RMS18]

BTW i want to thank everyone on here for the extremely valuable feedback and ideas. I no longer feel stuck, and feel confident for a positive outcome!

 

[BryanD]

First thought, alk to low, nitrates to high.

 

[Ocdreef]

I would ditch the Salifert nitrate and get a Red sea pro nitrate kit. They are much more accurate and easier to read. It is the only kit I use from them but i find it to be the most useful for nitrate. You could have sub zero to zero nitrates and coupled with your zeovit system running you may be starving your corals out of existence. Did the Triton test give you a chlorine/chloramines value? For that possibility put me in get your own rodi camp.

 

[iemsparticus]

That's so strange about the reactor being on and off at 3 hours intervals. It's not that i don't believe you but having started my tank following Alexanders instructions when the Zeovit community was fully aware of my set with live sand and dry rock this is news to me. If i did this reactor change this wouldn't spike my po4 and po3? I am using a few rocks over a half of bag to cover my 55 gallons. I also have the flow adjusted to the correct flow rate. I'm sorry i do not remember that number off hand, i'd have to look at my thread on zeovit forum... If i had to guess i think i was around 60-65 gph.

No the change will not spike your nitrates or phosphates.

Thing with the ZEOvit system is it really requires you to be in tune with your system at all times, and adjust things as needed.

Your flow rate sounds good. What is your ZEOvit media dosage? How long before you replace it each time? Are your blue bottles expired? Are you refrigerating your ZEObac?

I know you listed what you dose, but it would be helpful for me to evaluate why your Nitrates are so high while using the ZEOvit system to know your exact dosing regimine.

Your getting a lot of good advice from the folks here. You’ll get there! Just remember that, in this hobby, nothing goods happens quickly. Take changes very slow and steady.

 

[MJNTWise]

Alk is to low.

 

[ncaldwell]

Don't worry man, your not the only one. I'm following this thread for ideas too. It's been close to 2 years for me and I can't keep sps either. I think it's finally turning around for me though as I've had a test red planet in for a week and it looks better than any time before. I feel like it's just a maturity thing since no params have changed in the last year and a half. Keep your head up, I'm trying to do the same.

 

[RMS18]

I would ditch the Salifert nitrate and get a Red sea pro nitrate kit. They are much more accurate and easier to read. It is the only kit I use from them but i find it to be the most useful for nitrate. You could have sub zero to zero nitrates and coupled with your zeovit system running you may be starving your corals out of existence. Did the Triton test give you a chlorine/chloramines value? For that possibility put me in get your own rodi camp.

 

[ksfulk]

So, here's my experience with running my current tank with ZeoVit, from Day 1, using dry rock and dry sand. My tank is nearly all acros, and Ive had them in there as soon as Day 20 or so upon starting the tank up. I only dose Start, Bak and SpongePower, and havent changed the amounts Ive dosed of them since coming out of the initial cycle. My tank is now 18 months old and has always been on this system.

1.) I agree with nearly everyone that suggested taking a look at your source water. Iwould see if a change in the source water makes a difference going forward.

2.) Has anyone on the Zeo forum suggested lowering your alkalinity? 7.8 dKH is a little higher than suggested by the system, and I've personally seen issues with my acros when the dKH gets near 8 or more. I've read this thread over a couple of hours when I have breaks and thats what Ive seen that stands out to me. I monitor my alkalinity daily, and I usually run just below 7 and havent seen any detrimental effects at all. I would run it by those guys on the Zeo forums and see what they say. I may have missed it, but what are you using to maintain Alk/Cal - 2 part or something else?

3.) Increasing the light period (up from 6.5 hours) might be a good idea, though with the LEDs, I dont know anything about the intensity, but to me it sounds like they arent getting enough photo period. Its the difference between cooking something for an hour at 250 degrees, and cooking the same thing for 15 minutes at 1000 degrees.

 

[RMS18]

No the change will not spike your nitrates or phosphates.

Thing with the ZEOvit system is it really requires you to be in tune with your system at all times, and adjust things as needed.

Your flow rate sounds good. What is your ZEOvit media dosage? How long before you replace it each time? Are your blue bottles expired? Are you refrigerating your ZEObac?

I know you listed what you dose, but it would be helpful for me to evaluate why your Nitrates are so high while using the ZEOvit system to know your exact dosing regimine.

Your getting a lot of good advice from the folks here. You’ll get there! Just remember that, in this hobby, nothing goods happens quickly. Take changes very slow and steady.

500ml of media - half a bag is used. I change it out every 6 weeks.
Bottles are not experied, i buy smaller ones more frequently from BRS than buy larger ones to keep it fresh.
Zeobak, Coral Vitalizer and Biomate are in fridge.
I dose .2ml of Zeostart twice a day for .4ml per day. - ive tried to dose more but i get this film on my rocks and glass.
1 drop of Zeobak per day
4 drops of Biomate per day -for po4 regulating
1ml of LPS per day
2 Sponge power per day - this is replacement for zeofood
amino acids- i use the tabs 2 currently in tank. 1 per 25 gallons.

All of the dosing here was suggested by Alexander on the zeoforum, every month i check in and we make a small adjustment here or there.

 

[RMS18]

So, here's my experience with running my current tank with ZeoVit, from Day 1, using dry rock and dry sand. My tank is nearly all acros, and I've had them in there as soon as Day 20 or so upon starting the tank up. I only dose Start, ZeoBak and SpongePower, and havent changed the amounts Ive dosed of them since coming out of the initial cycle. My tank is now 18 months old and has always been on this system.

1.) I agree with nearly everyone that suggested taking a look at your source water. Iwould see if a change in the source water makes a difference going forward.

2.) Has anyone on the Zeo forum suggested lowering your alkalinity? 7.8 dKH is a little higher than suggested by the system, and I've personally seen issues with my acros when the dKH gets near 8 or more. I've read this thread over a couple of hours when I have breaks and thats what Ive seen that stands out to me. I monitor my alkalinity daily, and I usually run just below 7 and havent seen any detrimental effects at all. I would run it by those guys on the Zeo forums and see what they say. I may have missed it, but what are you using to maintain Alk/Cal - 2 part or something else?

3.) Increasing the light period (up from 6.5 hours) might be a good idea, though with the LEDs, I dont know anything about the intensity, but to me it sounds like they arent getting enough photo period. Its the difference between cooking something for an hour at 250 degrees, and cooking the same thing for 15 minutes at 1000 degrees.

1. Rodi system will be ordered today, even if it doesn't help it will save me the trips and lugging water around.
2. No they have not suggested that since my nutrients are no that low, i'm not considered uln - i will run this by them again to confirm.
3. I'm looking to decrease the led a bit and extend the period.

 

[iemsparticus]

500ml of media - half a bag is used. I change it out every 6 weeks.
Bottles are not experied, i buy smaller ones more frequently from BRS than buy larger ones to keep it fresh.
Zeobak, Coral Vitalizer and Biomate are in fridge.
I dose .2ml of Zeostart twice a day for .4ml per day. - ive tried to dose more but i get this film on my rocks and glass.
1 drop of Zeobak per day
4 drops of Biomate per day -for po4 regulating
1ml of LPS per day
2 Sponge power per day - this is replacement for zeofood
amino acids- i use the tabs 2 currently in tank. 1 per 25 gallons.

All of the dosing here was suggested by Alexander on the zeoforum, every month i check in and we make a small adjustment here or there.

You’re using 500mL of media on a 55 total system volume tank? Yeah that could easily be a large part of your Nitrate issue. I would recommend reducing that down to 375 mL for sure while you are in stage 2, and starting the 3 on 3 off routine.

 

[XNavyDiver]

Well, reading through this thread, I'll throw my .02. Like you, I started my tank with dry rock back in May of 2017. It's just in the last couple of months that acros haven't withered and died in my tank. It's making the very slow turn towards maturity, and still acro's aren't "thriving" in my tank (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/xnavydivers-peninsula-100.368392/). They live, have good PE, a few are encrusting along the base, but most aren't exploding with colors and growth. There is something about dry rock that stability isn't enough (maybe something about live rock bringing all that micro-fauna and biodiversity). Maturity and Stability seem to be the key. Coralline algae growth is always sited as a milestone of maturity, and that may be the case in tanks with live rock, but my tank is sick with coralline and I would not but a high end acro in the tank (yet!). That day is coming, I'm sure of it. But I still believe my tank is still a bit "immature" for $$$ Acropora. It's close, but not there yet.
It looks to me you've got the stability part down. Adding the RODI is a great idea that I completely agree with. I would keep doing what your doing and let time take care of the rest. Oh, and there are ways of giving your tank "maturity" infusions, if you'd like to give that a try.

 

[ksfulk]

It might be something to look at. I have no idea what my nitrate and/or phosphates are - I havent checked them since Nov 2016. Your dosing regiment is interesting, but I suppose all tanks are different. Mine is relatively simple:

Zeo Dosing
ZeoStart: 1mL daily
ZeoBak: 9 drops 2x weekly
SpongePower: 9 drops daily
ZeoLite: 1L changed ~ 5-6 weeks

 

[hatfielj]

I apologize in advance if someone already mentioned this, but that Zinc level is concerning. I don't know where it's coming from, but it's too high. This may be what's causing it all. Check out this short article (with pics) about what zinc does to corals: https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/be-careful-with-zinc-levels-in-your-reef
Your level is at 9. Check out the pic of what it does at a level of 10. They look pretty similar with lack of polyp extension and pale color.

I would check all of your equipment closely (take apart pumps, powerheads, look carefully at your heater, etc).

I agree with what others have said about getting your own RO/DI system. It's easy to install under a sink (not permanent). If you don't feel comfortable doing it, just call a plumber to do it.

Also, I'm not a fan of complex dosing regimens personally I think it adds more complexity than necessary to a system. I would eliminate the zeo dosing you're doing. It's probably safe to say it's not doing you any good at this point. I have no idea if it's causing your problems, but I would go back to the drawing board and keep things simple.
I agree with watching the Jason Fox video.

I don't think "tank maturity" is to blame. Your corals look irritated by something. In my experience (I've been keeping SPS for over 12 years) when a coral looks like yours, it's either a pest or an unwanted chemical in the water.

From the pics you posted, I can't spot any obvious signs of pests, but I would try taking out one or two of your worst looking pieces and dipping them in a coral dip in a white bowl, blow them off with a turkey baster after they soak and see if anything flies off. Flat worms can be hard to spot as can be red bugs, black bugs, etc.

Finally, you say your flow is "strong." What do you mean by that? What pumps do you have running? Flow is the most important thing in a SPS tank IMO.

 

[Fishfinder]

I agree with that.

 

[hatfielj]

A couple other thoughts...

Your iodine level is "0" That could be a problem. Did I read somewhere that you grow chaeto? If so, stop growing it. It can starve the corals of essential nutrients. It directly competes with the algae living in the corals. Again, keep this system simple. Water changes should be able to control your nutrients from the fish load.

Also, I would get rid of the CO2 scrubber. The pH level is just going to settle where it's going to settle. It doesn't really matter where it hovers as long as it's somewhere around 7.6-8.5. I've seen plenty of beautiful successful tanks with pH numbers way outside of the typical 8.1-8.3 in natural sea water. If your corals look happy, the pH doesn't matter. Jason Fox doesn't even know what his tank pH is because he doesn't bother checking it. Review this article about pH. There are certainly times in which pH problems can cause trouble, but in my experience it's rare. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/6/chemistry

 

[RMS18]

I apologize in advance if someone already mentioned this, but that Zinc level is concerning. I don't know where it's coming from, but it's too high. This may be what's causing it all. Check out this short article (with pics) about what zinc does to corals: https://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/be-careful-with-zinc-levels-in-your-reef
Your level is at 9. Check out the pic of what it does at a level of 10. They look pretty similar with lack of polyp extension and pale color.

I would check all of your equipment closely (take apart pumps, powerheads, look carefully at your heater, etc).

I agree with what others have said about getting your own RO/DI system. It's easy to install under a sink (not permanent). If you don't feel comfortable doing it, just call a plumber to do it.

Also, I'm not a fan of complex dosing regimens personally I think it adds more complexity than necessary to a system. I would eliminate the zeo dosing you're doing. It's probably safe to say it's not doing you any good at this point. I have no idea if it's causing your problems, but I would go back to the drawing board and keep things simple.
I agree with watching the Jason Fox video.

I don't think "tank maturity" is to blame. Your corals look irritated by something. In my experience (I've been keeping SPS for over 12 years) when a coral looks like yours, it's either a pest or an unwanted chemical in the water.

From the pics you posted, I can't spot any obvious signs of pests, but I would try taking out one or two of your worst looking pieces and dipping them in a coral dip in a white bowl, blow them off with a turkey baster after they soak and see if anything flies off. Flat worms can be hard to spot as can be red bugs, black bugs, etc.

Finally, you say your flow is "strong." What do you mean by that? What pumps do you have running? Flow is the most important thing in a SPS tank IMO.

Rodi system is on its way 3 days.

As far as flow i have a sicce 4.0 for return, and 2 pp-4 PW on random flow with max power set to 80%. I say flow is strong due to sand stirring in some spots, and when i feed food is blowing all around with some speed. Hard to explain flow i guess.

 

[RMS18]

A couple other thoughts...

Your iodine level is "0" That could be a problem. Did I read somewhere that you grow chaeto? If so, stop growing it. It can starve the corals of essential nutrients. It directly competes with the algae living in the corals. Again, keep this system simple. Water changes should be able to control your nutrients from the fish load.

Also, I would get rid of the CO2 scrubber. The pH level is just going to settle where it's going to settle. It doesn't really matter where it hovers as long as it's somewhere around 7.6-8.5. I've seen plenty of beautiful successful tanks with pH numbers way outside of the typical 8.1-8.3 in natural sea water. If your corals look happy, the pH doesn't matter. Jason Fox doesn't even know what his tank pH is because he doesn't bother checking it. Review this article about pH. There are certainly times in which pH problems can cause trouble, but in my experience it's rare. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/6/chemistry

I do not grow Chaeto. I appreciate all the feedback, i think going with my rodi system and a lighting change is where i want to start. I do not want to do to many things at once because i wont know what the issue was. I do have a list however of all the suggestions. I basically rated the changes by most popular and rodi and lighting was top 2.