Controllable Return Pump Options?

[Fish Fan]

I meant that IF the gyre is not enough to make enough "chaos" in the tank then I would use the return pumps to add some more "chaos" by adding the variable timing thing to them.
By siphon breaks do you mean like check valves??? Or what do you mean cause I've not heard of that term

I think why this member is advising to not vary your return(s) is because you need to tune your overflow to handle the flow and be quiet, safe. and reliable. If your return pumps were constantly varying the flow, the overflow wouldn't be working correctly.

I'm still not sure you need expensive gyres at this point if you only want softies right now. Back in the day, we had two simple powerheads on a light timer that went 20 minutes on, 20 minutes off and then 20 minutes both on. Was it elegant? Nope. But did it grow softies and many less demanding LPS and SPS? Absolutely!

 

[exnisstech]

https://aquariummaintenancebusiness... is being pumped,resizing the hole if needed.

 

[fish_collector]

I didn't read through the entire thread but... I use and recommend Jebao DC pumps for returns. I use dual return pumps on both of my tanks as well as I use them with needle wheels on my skimmers. I've had most of them for 2 years in continuous use with zero issues. You will not want to vary their speed once you get your overflow level set. I use a gate valve near the sump to back up the water to create a full siphon, then use the speed of the return pumps to fine tune it. you can create random flow with wavemakers meant for that purpose.

 

[Lasse]

I have done a similar set up for a Sea Horse tank at one of my jobs. I convert the controllers of the very old jebao pumps in order to accept 1-10 V. Connected this to a pump program in a Profilux controller. Function permanent opposite and Sine Wave. If first pump runs at 90 " - the second runs on 10; first 80% - second 20% and so on - the flow to the sump was constant - no problem with top of water or whats ever.

Nowadays - there is rather many options with return pumps that can be controlled by a 1-10V signal. I use CoralBox DCA serie (A jebao drop off) but GHL have their versions of SICCE, I´m sure that APEX have the same possibilities with their pumps. I know that Reef Breeders in the US sold Coral Box before but seems to have their own Jebao drop off in Nautilus but the controller is ver alike the one I have to my Coral Box return pumps.

I hav a CB DCA 4000 and 2 CB DCA 2000 (Skimmer and rector pumps) - nema problema for many years.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

I think why this member is advising to not vary your return(s) is because you need to tune your overflow to handle the flow and be quiet, safe. and reliable. If your return pumps were constantly varying the flow, the overflow wouldn't be working correctly.

I'm still not sure you need expensive gyres at this point if you only want softies right now. Back in the day, we had two simple powerheads on a light timer that went 20 minutes on, 20 minutes off and then 20 minutes both on. Was it elegant? Nope. But did it grow softies and many less demanding LPS and SPS? Absolutely!

Aaahhhh yessss I just read someone elses comment and they said something about tuning the overflow with the gate/ball valve and I just remembered that has to be full for it to do that and if its never full because my pumps are going in and out then it will always be sucking in air at times and will then make it noisy, got it! I completely forgot about that part, that's where I was getting confused.
Hmmm yeah honestly I am not sure either but I do love how it can be treated as 8 different ones because of all the different angles, that's what got me.

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

https://aquariummaintenancebusiness... is being pumped,resizing the hole if needed.

Ohhhh yessss, I was going to add those holes to the bottom of the nozzles where the return pumps are shooting out the water, I believe that is what I have seen people do so that the water level doesn't go below those return nozzles right?

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

I didn't read through the entire thread but... I use and recommend Jebao DC pumps for returns. I use dual return pumps on both of my tanks as well as I use them with needle wheels on my skimmers. I've had most of them for 2 years in continuous use with zero issues. You will not want to vary their speed once you get your overflow level set. I use a gate valve near the sump to back up the water to create a full siphon, then use the speed of the return pumps to fine tune it. you can create random flow with wavemakers meant for that purpose.

Awesome! Another one for the Jebao pumps! I think i am going to end up getting those then. Whats a needle wheel?
YES, you just reminded me why that will create a problem!

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

I have done a similar set up for a Sea Horse tank at one of my jobs. I convert the controllers of the very old jebao pumps in order to accept 1-10 V. Connected this to a pump program in a Profilux controller. Function permanent opposite and Sine Wave. If first pump runs at 90 " - the second runs on 10; first 80% - second 20% and so on - the flow to the sump was constant - no problem with top of water or whats ever.

Nowadays - there is rather many options with return pumps that can be controlled by a 1-10V signal. I use CoralBox DCA serie (A jebao drop off) but GHL have their versions of SICCE, I´m sure that APEX have the same possibilities with their pumps. I know that Reef Breeders in the US sold Coral Box before but seems to have their own Jebao drop off in Nautilus but the controller is ver alike the one I have to my Coral Box return pumps.

I hav a CB DCA 4000 and 2 CB DCA 2000 (Skimmer and rector pumps) - nema problema for many years.

Sincerely Lasse

But would doing that make any sort of waves or chaotic movement in the tank? Or running them 90-10,80-20 etc was just a constant flow since I would assume the way it switched from 80-20 to 70-30 was probably not even noticeable.
Ahhh yeah thats true haha.

 

[Wmacintosh]

Ohhhh yessss, I was going to add those holes to the bottom of the nozzles where the return pumps are shooting out the water, I believe that is what I have seen people do so that the water level doesn't go below those return nozzles right?

That may be enough to cause a syphon break, but if you want to keep those return jets that low it i would need redundanve lol I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that if the pumps lose power for some reason that it could potentially syphon a ton of water all over your floor after flooding your sump. You can put a anti-syphon valve in the return lines that wont allow backpressure. But be mindful this can cause other problems if they aren't checked or maintenanced to make sure they arent sticking open or malfunctioning etc In my Reefer 350 I have to keep my return bassically horrizontal to the water (its a T) it basically points above the water but only 1/4 of the outlet is out of the water. If its any lower it will continue filling my sump until the water level drained enough to break the syphon.

Having dual returns that then split again (i think thats what i saw) would multiply the amount of syphons that each need to break and your risk.

As for the whole dual pump thing, you could do that but I feel like the benefit doesnt out way to cons. As others mentioned the rate which water is going into your over flow and down to the sump needs to be the same rate that you a pumping water back. Secondly you ATO sensor will be in your sump so you will need a constant never changing water level to correctly maintain your ato and salinity. If both pumps are not keeping the perfect speeds together 80/20 or /90/10 for example without any lag from one pump or the other during the switch to 20/80 or 10/90 it will change your water level in the sump because one or the other pump for a short time could be pumping more or less. Over time this could be greater volume of different taken out of your sump creating another problem for your ato and not dumping more RO than needed or not enough RO. You have to be more mindful and i would even have a line of tape on my sump to know exactly where the water line should be at all time. Youre adding the risk of salinity getting out of whack unnoticed. I would personally have 1 pump, with a Y split line to both returns and keep the second pump as a back up. I say this becvause my ecotech vectra s2 literally stopped working night before last and luckily I had another return pump to quickly swap out while I send the broken one to be fixed.

 

[Lasse]

I thought that you want a variation of flow from each pump. In the case I desctibe we had two pumps on opposite short sides. When it was 100 % flow from the left pump - it was 0 % flow from the right and when it shift in a continuous manner in form of a sine curve - the total flow from the two pumps was always the same but it varied from which direction the main flow came - it was like a slow swell. 1-10 V control makes this possible.

Like this

I´m sorry if I misunderstand your intention.



Sincerely Lasse

 

[noobreefer2]

Reef2Reef!

exactly

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

That may be enough to cause a syphon break, but if you want to keep those return jets that low it i would need redundanve lol I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing that if the pumps lose power for some reason that it could potentially syphon a ton of water all over your floor after flooding your sump. You can put a anti-syphon valve in the return lines that wont allow backpressure. But be mindful this can cause other problems if they aren't checked or maintenanced to make sure they arent sticking open or malfunctioning etc In my Reefer 350 I have to keep my return bassically horrizontal to the water (its a T) it basically points above the water but only 1/4 of the outlet is out of the water. If its any lower it will continue filling my sump until the water level drained enough to break the syphon.

Having dual returns that then split again (i think thats what i saw) would multiply the amount of syphons that each need to break and your risk.

As for the whole dual pump thing, you could do that but I feel like the benefit doesnt out way to cons. As others mentioned the rate which water is going into your over flow and down to the sump needs to be the same rate that you a pumping water back. Secondly you ATO sensor will be in your sump so you will need a constant never changing water level to correctly maintain your ato and salinity. If both pumps are not keeping the perfect speeds together 80/20 or /90/10 for example without any lag from one pump or the other during the switch to 20/80 or 10/90 it will change your water level in the sump because one or the other pump for a short time could be pumping more or less. Over time this could be greater volume of different taken out of your sump creating another problem for your ato and not dumping more RO than needed or not enough RO. You have to be more mindful and i would even have a line of tape on my sump to know exactly where the water line should be at all time. Youre adding the risk of salinity getting out of whack unnoticed. I would personally have 1 pump, with a Y split line to both returns and keep the second pump as a back up. I say this becvause my ecotech vectra s2 literally stopped working night before last and luckily I had another return pump to quickly swap out while I send the broken one to be fixed.

Yeah that's true but a lot of people use that hole for a siphon break and I don't think I've heard that it fails yet. Can't I just put check valves on the return pipes???
I also don't have an ATO so that wouldn't be an issue for me.
I would definitely have a backup pump even with 2 pumps just in case they both go out (which likely wouldn't happen) and since I'd be running them at roughly 50%, I could just use one at 100% if one gave out.

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

I thought that you want a variation of flow from each pump. In the case I desctibe we had two pumps on opposite short sides. When it was 100 % flow from the left pump - it was 0 % flow from the right and when it shift in a continuous manner in form of a sine curve - the total flow from the two pumps was always the same but it varied from which direction the main flow came - it was like a slow swell. 1-10 V control makes this possible.

Like this

I´m sorry if I misunderstand your intention.



Sincerely Lasse

Ohhh ok so then it did change the current in the water! That's exactly what I am wanting to do. So you're saying that you has no issues with doing that?
It would be possible to do faster intervals between eachother and create faster /shorter waves and it still shouldn't affect the overflow/sump right?

 

[Wmacintosh]

Yeah that's true but a lot of people use that hole for a siphon break and I don't think I've heard that it fails yet. Can't I just put check valves on the return pipes???
I also don't have an ATO so that wouldn't be an issue for me.
I would definitely have a backup pump even with 2 pumps just in case they both go out (which likely wouldn't happen) and since I'd be running them at roughly 50%, I could just use one at 100% if one gave out.

They can fail mostly by getting clogged and not doing as they’re supposed to and you also have to take into account water will shoot out of the drilled hole where ever you put it.

 

[DanP-SD]

Thank you!
Here is a picture of how I would do the setup. There would be chaotic movement because of the Gyre having 8 different sections now along with the possibility of the return pumps giving some type of chaotic movement as well by putting them on those controllers.

This is a sound approach. I use two returns as well for the same reason. Everything has a non-zero risk of failing, and losing your main circulation is a pretty bad failure. Having two pumps means one will continue circulating your water and the return will get noisy to alert you to the issue.

As many here have noted, don’t vary the return flow rates. Even with a bean animal drain, the change in flow is almost instant and affects the noise. I turn mine down for feeding and it gets loud fast.

As for the gyre flow and Josh’s video, it’s possible you could have a challenge getting particulate out of the tank and into the filtration if your in-tank flow doesn’t keep debris in suspension and push it toward the overflows. I use my gyres to push flow toward the overflow and then use powerheads to create chaotic reef crest zones and keep detritus from settling in the sand. For my 260 gallon, two Gyre 350s and three MP40s do the trick with none at 100%.

For the return pump, consider a water blaster. They’re cheap AC pumps and are incredibly durable, even if you don’t maintain them — in may experience the most reliable durable pump out there. I posted a more detailed thread here on R2R years ago but they’re still solid pumps. You don’t need DC control on the return. Just put a good gate valve on the bean drain to tune it to the pump flow. A ball valve on the return pumps will give you some rough control over the pump output.

If you want DC, I’d be reluctant to use a budget dc pump for my return but if you use two and keep a third on hand as a backup, it should provide you the redundancy this critical system needs.

Good luck and keep posting here. There are a lot of knowledgeable reefers who will help ease you into your addiction hobby.

 

[Lasse]

Ohhh ok so then it did change the current in the water! That's exactly what I am wanting to do. So you're saying that you has no issues with doing that?
It would be possible to do faster intervals between eachother and create faster /shorter waves and it still shouldn't affect the overflow/sump right?

If you have two identical pumps and pipe construction and each give - let us say 1000 L/H - and you can control them the way I can with my GHL profilux computer - its possible because the sum of the two pumps flow will be almost the same. hence it is possible to adjust your Ben Animal overflow. The intervals can vary between 1 - 60 seconds in my case but lesser than 10 seconds may not be useful.

If you want another type of waves. short and fast you need to use two 1-10 V controllable wave makers set on permanent opposite . Or 2 app controlled wavemakers with a permanent opposite option. Jebao have wavemakers (and probably other brands too) with a app there you can set two wavemakers to do this without using a aquarium controller. With a wavemaker you can set a very fast switch between the different pumps flow, you can indeed create a standing wave. Below you can see a 8 years old video of my aquarium with a standing wave created by two old Jebao RW8 placed in opposite corners and controlled to permanent opposing drive by a special controller from Coral Box. Today, several of their app-controlled wavemakers can do the same. The controller was set to a frequency of 0.7 sec and short wave length of the aquarium - 1200 mm



Today the aquarium is very overgrown and now I have 5 different wavemakers to allow a similar wave movement.



Hope this help you

Sincerely Lasse

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

They can fail mostly by getting clogged and not doing as they’re supposed to and you also have to take into account water will shoot out of the drilled hole where ever you put it.

The hole getting clogged or the check valves??
Yeah but I don't think water being shot out the bottom of it matters since it'll just go back into the tank regardless.

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

This is a sound approach. I use two returns as well for the same reason. Everything has a non-zero risk of failing, and losing your main circulation is a pretty bad failure. Having two pumps means one will continue circulating your water and the return will get noisy to alert you to the issue.

As many here have noted, don’t vary the return flow rates. Even with a bean animal drain, the change in flow is almost instant and affects the noise. I turn mine down for feeding and it gets loud fast.

As for the gyre flow and Josh’s video, it’s possible you could have a challenge getting particulate out of the tank and into the filtration if your in-tank flow doesn’t keep debris in suspension and push it toward the overflows. I use my gyres to push flow toward the overflow and then use powerheads to create chaotic reef crest zones and keep detritus from settling in the sand. For my 260 gallon, two Gyre 350s and three MP40s do the trick with none at 100%.

For the return pump, consider a water blaster. They’re cheap AC pumps and are incredibly durable, even if you don’t maintain them — in may experience the most reliable durable pump out there. I posted a more detailed thread here on R2R years ago but they’re still solid pumps. You don’t need DC control on the return. Just put a good gate valve on the bean drain to tune it to the pump flow. A ball valve on the return pumps will give you some rough control over the pump output.

If you want DC, I’d be reluctant to use a budget dc pump for my return but if you use two and keep a third on hand as a backup, it should provide you the redundancy this critical system needs.

Good luck and keep posting here. There are a lot of knowledgeable reefers who will help ease you into your addiction hobby.

Yeah exactly.
Hmm dang it.
Well thats why I was thinking the new gyre would be best because I could face it in any way possible to figure out a setup that it will create chaotic movement but still push everything towards the overflow.
If I can't use the return pumps to create chaotic movement in the tank as well then I honestly don't see a reason to get pumps with a control on them so I do agree there.
Hahaha thank you!

 

[Featherweight]

There's 4 pages of things here to say:
don't vary your return
Run a gyre or wave powerheads or 2
It's important to tune your flow to the overflow. It's basic physics n plumbing.
That's it.
On my 55 gal reefer 250, I run 2 gyres 2 small jaboea wavemaker and a single return pump.
Flow is chaotic and thorough.

 

[SaltWaterTank_Noob]

If you have two identical pumps and pipe construction and each give - let us say 1000 L/H - and you can control them the way I can with my GHL profilux computer - its possible because the sum of the two pumps flow will be almost the same. hence it is possible to adjust your Ben Animal overflow. The intervals can vary between 1 - 60 seconds in my case but lesser than 10 seconds may not be useful.

If you want another type of waves. short and fast you need to use two 1-10 V controllable wave makers set on permanent opposite . Or 2 app controlled wavemakers with a permanent opposite option. Jebao have wavemakers (and probably other brands too) with a app there you can set two wavemakers to do this without using a aquarium controller. With a wavemaker you can set a very fast switch between the different pumps flow, you can indeed create a standing wave. Below you can see a 8 years old video of my aquarium with a standing wave created by two old Jebao RW8 placed in opposite corners and controlled to permanent opposing drive by a special controller from Coral Box. Today, several of their app-controlled wavemakers can do the same. The controller was set to a frequency of 0.7 sec and short wave length of the aquarium - 1200 mm



Today the aquarium is very overgrown and now I have 5 different wavemakers to allow a similar wave movement.



Hope this help you

Sincerely Lasse

They would be the same exact pumps, might not be the same pipe length but I'm sure I could easily adjust the pump so that they are both dispensing the same amount of flow at the exits and then make those rates my 0.
I wouldn't think it would need to be less than 10 seconds, especially since I would have my gyre as well creating other movement.
Wait, so those are wavemakers or those are the return pumps making that movement???