Coral Coloration LEDS vs MH vs T5

[Jonathan Troutt]

So I jumped back into this hobby almost 2 years ago after being away from it for quite some time.
I purchased 2 viparspectra 165w LED fixtures for my 40 breeder. Shortly after getting back into the hobby I purchased a rainbow BTA from a local fellow reefer that he had under radion xr30's. The nem was stunning under the radions it had this radioactive glow to it. Get it home to my tank and it still looked good but did not have this pop to it.

Since then I have changed diodes in my fixtures about 6 times to try and achieve this. It never happen of course trying to replicate a radion on a light with 2 channels is going to be difficult.

I've done some talking to some local peeps and I had one guy tell me to add t5's to the front and back kinda of like a hybrid fixture. He said that my lights (viparspectra) do not produce a full spectrum and the full spectrum is what caused the corals and other things to color up.

So it got me thinking the radions have more of a full spectrum.
Is it true that LED units like the Viparspectras that do not provide a full spectrum do not encourage that color pop. While LED units that incorporate diodes that can provide the full range of color do?

In my case I have two options if this is true. Well these are the two options I am giving myself.
1. Mod my lights to have this full spectrum. Basically I would design a MCPCB and have it made where I could have 8 channels and then install high quality diodes in a similar ratio as the radions.

2. This option is what the guy recommended. Get a hybrid 4 bulb t5 fixture and supplement my LED lights with T5 .

@Dana Riddle I apologize for tagging you in this but I would love to have the advice of someone so highly regarded. I have yet to find a solid answer to this question of why there is that missing pop. The full spectrum argument makes sense to me though.

If this is the case adding t5 would be the inexpensive option minus the bulb replacement that has to happen. Redesigning my LEDS would cost more but even if I did decide to go this route I would still have less that what it cost's to buy one radion. Thanks in advance.

 

[joseserrano]

interesting

 

[jda]

No LED units are as full of spectrum as T5s. T5s will have true UV (not just violet diodes masquerading as UV) and also some IR. Orphek Atlantik v4 is as close as they come with some true UV and IR diodes.

You need lights to do three things for you 1). give the coral food, 2). render true color in the coral and 3). illuminate the coral.

You need all three. For the most part, daylight is best at rendering true color with is massive amount of all wavelengths. Daylight is not good at illuminating more coral to today's standards where people want the blacklight "pop" and otherwise bluer look. Bluer light is better at illuminating for most people.

That "radioactive glow" was all illumination if you had it not glow as much for you instantly. When colors fade over time, but look good initially, then it is a rendering issue.

If it were me and you wanted just "pop" then try and emulate ReefBrite XHO and not the Radion.

Edit: I forgot my main advice... which is to go more daylight during general lighting hours and then "blue it up" for viewing later in the day or when you are home. I would personally get the T5s and let them do the heavy lifting since they better quality, IMO, and then add in your custom LEDs later on for the "pop."

 

[Hemmdog]

That "radioactive glow" was all illumination if you had it not glow as much for you instantly. When colors fade over time, but look good initially, then it is a rendering issue.

Could you elaborate on this? I seem to have this issue. When I try things to improve it, such as lowering my hybrid fixture a few inches to achieve higher par, they look great again for a month or so, then start to fade. I lower it a little more and they fluoresce again for a month, but are already starting to fade. It’s not a trace element issue on my end.

 

[jda]

I would need to know more about your specific tank to have more specific advice (maybe some photos), so this is mostly general, but...

When corals look good when you get them, but then change or fade over time, it is because your lights are not the same as what they were under before (duh, right?). This is more pronounced with going from a mercury-based light source (T5 or MH with wider spectrum) to LEDs only... but it can happen with any type of light. This can be a quantity thing, but usually is quality where they are getting less spectrum now.

People see this some when they get frags from Battlecorals, for example... they were growing with heavy emphasis on 6500k lighting which is more like daylight and excellent at rendering color. They look good when you get them since your lights are good at popping coral. Over time, they don't look as good when this 6500k spectrum is not present and the extra XX% of color slowly fades. This is easier for a vendor to do than a hobbyist... he is not looking at his corals and is happy to have them grow and have great color and does not really care about illumination.

Everybody probably knows that I like me some MH... mostly because they render and illuminate both in one handy package (and they cover large areas well). They can have a lot of spectrum from 350 to 850nm which will allow the coral the widest range to build actual color proteins as well as the "sunscreen" type of pigments for the wavelengths that they don't want. They do this in nature. I have people tell me a lot that the corals that they got from me faded over a few months... and this is why some of them have moved to MH since they have seen this with their own eyes.

For the most part, if you really focus on rendering, then illumination takes care of it's self except for in the case of the current fad of rainbow tenuis and the "blacklight" or look like Pandora from that James Cameron movie.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Could you elaborate on this? I seem to have this issue. When I try things to improve it, such as lowering my hybrid fixture a few inches to achieve higher par, they look great again for a month or so, then start to fade. I lower it a little more and they fluoresce again for a month, but are already starting to fade. It’s not a trace element issue on my end.

Ok so this photo was taken by my phone at the dudes house. I purchased the one in the back.
This next two are taken the next day in my tank under my lights with my phone.

It such an incredible difference. This is an extreme example of what i am talking about.
I have good looking pieces that look nice. Like the following

Those two pictures are taken with a filter because my blues are on but they look like that in person.
But there ya go. Im not after what those anemones look like in the first photos but a little more fluorescence would be nice. It is supposed to be a rainbow but in my tank under my lights it looks like a regular ol rose.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

I would need to know more about your specific tank to have more specific advice (maybe some photos), so this is mostly general, but...

When corals look good when you get them, but then change or fade over time, it is because your lights are not the same as what they were under before (duh, right?). This is more pronounced with going from a mercury-based light source (T5 or MH with wider spectrum) to LEDs only... but it can happen with any type of light. This can be a quantity thing, but usually is quality where they are getting less spectrum now.

People see this some when they get frags from Battlecorals, for example... they were growing with heavy emphasis on 6500k lighting which is more like daylight and excellent at rendering color. They look good when you get them since your lights are good at popping coral. Over time, they don't look as good when this 6500k spectrum is not present and the extra XX% of color slowly fades. This is easier for a vendor to do than a hobbyist... he is not looking at his corals and is happy to have them grow and have great color and does not really care about illumination.

Everybody probably knows that I like me some MH... mostly because they render and illuminate both in one handy package (and they cover large areas well). They can have a lot of spectrum from 350 to 850nm which will allow the coral the widest range to build actual color proteins as well as the "sunscreen" type of pigments for the wavelengths that they don't want. They do this in nature. I have people tell me a lot that the corals that they got from me faded over a few months... and this is why some of them have moved to MH since they have seen this with their own eyes.

For the most part, if you really focus on rendering, then illumination takes care of it's self except for in the case of the current fad of rainbow tenuis and the "blacklight" or look like Pandora from that James Cameron movie.

This is the exact thing the guy was saying today. Corals need full spectrum to develop the color and then the blue/violet/uv to make em pop.

 

[Dana Riddle]

No need to apologize - I'm here to answer questions! I went to the Viparspectra website and the aquarium LED array is advertised to contain these LEDs:
Channel one: Violet(420nm), Royal Blue(450nm), Blue(470nm)
Channel two: Green(520nm), Red(660nm), Neutral White(6500K), Cool White(12000K)
Now, let's compare this to the blue spectra produced by a Radion. I would have to test the Radion again (it's not mine) to determine the full spectra quality.

We see peaks at 409nm, 444nm, and 463nm.
Let's compare this to data Sanjay published a while back.

When we look at the data on E. quadricolor, we see the wavelengths required to make the color 'pop' (excitation wavelength) is in the greenish/yellow portion of the spectrum (559nm) with the fluorescent emission in the red part of the spectrum (611nm.)
So, we have to make some assumptions. First, that we're dealing with fluorescent proteins that are the same as those in published data. Second, your LED panel is producing roughly the same light intensity output as the Radion (obviously, the more intense the excitation light, the brighter the red fluorescent emission.) I have a photo taken at the Long Island Aquarium where these anemones had better color at a PAR value of 150 than at 450. Third, that the Radions Sanjay and I have tested are representative of the Radion you mentioned.
To make a long story short, it appears green light is responsible for the reddish fluorescence seen in at least some red anemones.

So I jumped back into this hobby almost 2 years ago after being away from it for quite some time.
I purchased 2 viparspectra 165w LED fixtures for my 40 breeder. Shortly after getting back into the hobby I purchased a rainbow BTA from a local fellow reefer that he had under radion xr30's. The nem was stunning under the radions it had this radioactive glow to it. Get it home to my tank and it still looked good but did not have this pop to it.

Since then I have changed diodes in my fixtures about 6 times to try and achieve this. It never happen of course trying to replicate a radion on a light with 2 channels is going to be difficult.

I've done some talking to some local peeps and I had one guy tell me to add t5's to the front and back kinda of like a hybrid fixture. He said that my lights (viparspectra) do not produce a full spectrum and the full spectrum is what caused the corals and other things to color up.

So it got me thinking the radions have more of a full spectrum.
Is it true that LED units like the Viparspectras that do not provide a full spectrum do not encourage that color pop. While LED units that incorporate diodes that can provide the full range of color do?

In my case I have two options if this is true. Well these are the two options I am giving myself.
1. Mod my lights to have this full spectrum. Basically I would design a MCPCB and have it made where I could have 8 channels and then install high quality diodes in a similar ratio as the radions.

2. This option is what the guy recommended. Get a hybrid 4 bulb t5 fixture and supplement my LED lights with T5 .

@Dana Riddle I apologize for tagging you in this but I would love to have the advice of someone so highly regarded. I have yet to find a solid answer to this question of why there is that missing pop. The full spectrum argument makes sense to me though.

If this is the case adding t5 would be the inexpensive option minus the bulb replacement that has to happen. Redesigning my LEDS would cost more but even if I did decide to go this route I would still have less that what it cost's to buy one radion. Thanks in advance.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

@jda
My viparspectra are
Royal blue
Red
Green
10k white
Violet.

Ive always felt they are missing aomething important

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

No need to apologize - I'm here to answer questions! I went to the Viparspectra website and the aquarium LED array is advertised to contain these LEDs:
Channel one: Violet(420nm), Royal Blue(450nm), Blue(470nm)
Channel two: Green(520nm), Red(660nm), Neutral White(6500K), Cool White(12000K)
Now, let's compare this to the blue spectra produced by a Radion. I would have to test the Radion again (it's not mine) to determine the full spectra quality.

We see peaks at 409nm, 444nm, and 463nm.
Let's compare this to data Sanjay published a while back.

When we look at the data on E. quadricolor, we see the wavelengths required to make the color 'pop' (excitation wavelength) is in the greenish/yellow portion of the spectrum (559nm) with the fluorescent emission in the red part of the spectrum (611nm.)
So, we have to make some assumptions. First, that we're dealing with fluorescent proteins that are the same as those in published data. Second, your LED panel is producing roughly the same light intensity output as the Radion (obviously, the more intense the excitation light, the brighter the red fluorescent emission.) I have a photo taken at the Long Island Aquarium where these anemones had better color at a PAR value of 150 than at 450. Third, that the Radions Sanjay and I have tested are representative of the Radion you mentioned.
To make a long story short, it appears green light is responsible for the reddish fluorescence seen in at least some red anemones.

Why such a drastic difference in look. Does 4 red leds make that much difference vs 2? The radions has 4 i believe and my vipar has 2. Or is it because you are able to drive the red channel separately from the rest then you dont have things like white drowning out the red?

 

[jda]

I will also caution you that you have no idea really what those corals were under the day before you got them. At my house, it is easy because the bulbs are the bulbs and I cannot change them. With LED people, you always have to wonder. For all that you know, he had some whiter program to get the colors going and then just blued-it-up for you when you purchased one. While most people are not really that nefarious, you just don't ever know... so study it for a bit, but if it does not make sense, then let it go as an unknown.

I am not the best guy to ask about LEDs. I just test some and help some of the locals, but my own experience stopped years ago when my curiosity stopped. Sorry. I will say that the Radion in Dr. Joshi's chart was at 100% on all channels. He runs them this way and has one of the best Radion lit tanks on the planet - I think that most would agree with this. Lots of people turn down the greens, reds and white and then the spectrum changes... often to the detriment of the corals. I like this chart since it kinda mimics what some of the best bulbs to date do... which is still have a good amount of spectrum above the blue and green.

This is off topic, but in the chart above with the three light types, the light under 425nm is very important for color rendering and also pop. Corals can get "UV sunscreen" that has a nice color. Also, corals will absorb these wavelenghts as energy and then spit the waves back out as lower energy that is visible to the human eye - ala 380nm into the protein, use some of the energy, and expell at 405nm which has a really nice deep purple look to it. Without these wavelengths coming in, you don't get this true color. This does not probably happen with the BTAs, but it will with other coral.

That difference in 4 days is all about illumination. Look into whatever ReefBrite does with their XHOs if you want that look. I have no idea, but probably overdriven RBs, or something like that.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

I will also caution you that you have no idea really what those corals were under the day before you got them. At my house, it is easy because the bulbs are the bulbs and I cannot change them. With LED people, you always have to wonder. For all that you know, he had some whiter program to get the colors going and then just blued-it-up for you when you purchased one. While most people are not really that nefarious, you just don't ever know... so study it for a bit, but if it does not make sense, then let it go as an unknown.

I am not the best guy to ask about LEDs. I just test some and help some of the locals, but my own experience stopped years ago when my curiosity stopped. Sorry. I will say that the Radion in Dr. Joshi's chart was at 100% on all channels. He runs them this way and has one of the best Radion lit tanks on the planet - I think that most would agree with this. Lots of people turn down the greens, reds and white and then the spectrum changes... often to the detriment of the corals. I like this chart since it kinda mimics what some of the best bulbs to date do... which is still have a good amount of spectrum above the blue and green.

This is off topic, but in the chart above with the three light types, the light under 425nm is very important for color rendering and also pop. Corals can get "UV sunscreen" that has a nice color. Also, corals will absorb these wavelenghts as energy and then spit the waves back out as lower energy that is visible to the human eye - ala 380nm into the protein, use some of the energy, and expell at 405nm which has a really nice deep purple look to it. Without these wavelengths coming in, you don't get this true color. This does not probably happen with the BTAs, but it will with other coral.

That difference in 4 days is all about illumination. Look into whatever ReefBrite does with their XHOs if you want that look. I have no idea, but probably overdriven RBs, or something like that.

So you are agree and saying i need to add full spectrum lighting or just go the t5 route for full spectrum supplementation.

I dont understand why of all the information we have lighting is so confusing in this hobby. At least to me it is.

 

[Dana Riddle]

So you are agree and saying i need to add full spectrum lighting or just go the t5 route for full spectrum supplementation.

I dont understand why of all the information we have lighting is so confusing in this hobby. At least to me it is.

I have a BTA in my tank, but it is hiding at the moment. Next time it's out, I'll expose it to different spectra and have some more practical information. But the info I've got suggests green light is the key to 'pop' in this case, something the mercury spikes in fluorescent lamps can provide (at 546nm.)

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Thats interesting. I am trying to get my hands on a 8 bulb 48” t5 fixture currently. I was going to modify it to be able to mount my black boxes in it. I might be able to get ir for free.
If that doesnt happen im gonna go buy a couple t5 ballast and make my own fixture.

Thank you for your help @Dana Riddle @jda

 

[oreo54]

Not going to agree or disagree w/ any of the above BUT what didn't quite seem like some got..

I purchased a rainbow BTA from a local fellow reefer that he had under radion xr30's. The nem was stunning under the radions

Those are LED's and,arguably, were probably more intense than the viparspecctras that push..likely at best 100W of low efficiency diodes..
170 real watts each for th XR30's and of course:
Cool White: 8 Cree XP-G2 (40W)
• Deep Blue: 8 Osram Oslon Square (40W )
• Blue: 8 Cree XP-E (24W)
• Green: 4 Cree XP-E (14W)
• Hyper Red: 4 Osram Oslon SSL (12W)
• Yellow: 2 Osram Oslon SSL (6W)
• Indigo: 4 SemiLEDs (10W)
• UV: 4 SemiLEDs (10W)


Adding t5's will add PAR ..
Yes there are spectrum differences but don't discount raw intensity...
There are different xr30's (spectrum/diodes) though. I believe

 

[taricha]

Crazy idea. The anemone in the first pic appears green/orange because it's missing red fluorescent emission.
In the second pic the red emission drowns out the orange.

Based on Dana's pigment data the red emission -likely p611 is driven by green-yellow light from 520-580 peaking around 550.

The lights in the second tank have a lot of that color, green LEDs and two kinds of white.
The radion based on the graph seems to lack much light driving the excitation in that range.

Maybe if you kill the whites and (possibly also) the greens and the red will largely fade revealing the yellow-orange.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Not going to agree or disagree w/ any of the above BUT what didn't quite seem like some got..


Those are LED's and,arguably, were probably more intense than the viparspecctras that push..likely at best 100W of low efficiency diodes..
170 real watts each for th XR30's and of course:
Cool White: 8 Cree XP-G2 (40W)
• Deep Blue: 8 Osram Oslon Square (40W )
• Blue: 8 Cree XP-E (24W)
• Green: 4 Cree XP-E (14W)
• Hyper Red: 4 Osram Oslon SSL (12W)
• Yellow: 2 Osram Oslon SSL (6W)
• Indigo: 4 SemiLEDs (10W)
• UV: 4 SemiLEDs (10W)


Adding t5's will add PAR ..
Yes there are spectrum differences but don't discount raw intensity...

The spectrum is different between the radions and the viparspectra but as fat as intensity i actually think the viparspectra have better numbers there. The data is over in the black box study thread on here.
Regardless a 450-465nm diode is a royal blue diode. Regardless if it is a an expensive brand or not.
The issue here is spectrum not intensity.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Crazy idea. The anemone in the first pic appears green/orange because it's missing red fluorescent emission.
In the second pic the red emission drowns out the orange.

Based on Dana's pigment data the red emission -likely p611 is driven by green-yellow light from 520-580 peaking around 550.

The lights in the second tank have a lot of that color, green LEDs and two kinds of white.
The radion based on the graph seems to lack much light driving the excitation in that range.

Maybe if you kill the whites and (possibly also) the greens and the red will largely fade revealing the yellow-orange.

This is an interesting thought. This is also why i am wanting to redesign the plate and have 5-8 channels.

thank you for your input.

 

[oreo54]

2 are inter-related as is production vs expression by reflected light...

Second, your LED panel is producing roughly the same light intensity output as the Radion

most black box channels are driven at 550mA thus diodes are really 2w.
most cheap diodes have watt efficiencies around 60 Lumens/watt (unfortunately not "PAR"/watt)
What the Radion was set at (and intensity) is ???

see my "issue" here is ..say you add 4 t5's (probably doubling the PAR regardless of spectrum) and it err "works"..
Which is it spectrum or raw photon count?

Blue difference between the black box and radion is the radion dips into 400nm range (yea not even much TRUE UV) whereas the black box doesn't go quite that low.. Rest is fairly similar in spectrum.
black box has plain red whereas the radion has 660nm red..and some "yellow" (or amber)
610-ish??
To be honest the first thing you need to do is determine how the orig owner had his channels set in the Radion xr30 at the time

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

2 are inter-related as is production vs expression by reflected light...

Ive taken par readings on my tank and can achiever higher par values than the radions.