Coral Coloration LEDS vs MH vs T5

[Jonathan Troutt]

2 are inter-related as is production vs expression by reflected light...

most black box channels are driven at 550mA thus diodes are really 2w.
most cheap diodes have watt efficiencies around 60 Lumens/watt (unfortunately not "PAR"/watt)
What the Radion was set at (and intensity) is ???

see my "issue" here is ..say you add 4 t5's (probably doubling the PAR regardless of spectrum) and it err "works"..
Which is it spectrum or raw photon count?

Blue difference between the black box and radion is the radion dips into 400nm range (yea not even much TRUE UV) whereas the black box doesn't go quite that low.. Rest is fairly similar in spectrum.
black box has plain red whereas the radion has 660nm red..and some "yellow" (or amber)
610-ish??
To be honest the first thing you need to do is determine how the orig owner had his channels set in the Radion xr30 at the time

If my lights currently are producing par numbers that even or above what the radion can put out then it wouldn't be raw photon count. At least that is what makes sense to me. If i am wrong please correct me by all means.

 

[oreo54]

you tell me you have the numbers..
Keep in mind for one ..not 2 ..

Depends where you measure it...

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Yea i have the numbers. Very close to it. Where mine differs are the sides if i am testing just one light. My par drops off as I approach the edges and is up in the 370’s in the middle. 200-250 around the edges.

I have my lights basically mounted together lengthwise to be able fit over my 4 breeder so i have alot of overlap.

There has been some testing on the viparspectra. Manose did it. Here is the par map for 8” above the water measurements taken at 24” depth.

So yeah intensity is not an issue.

 

[oreo54]

So where are the Radions "map" for comparison???

Look I'm not trying to disprove you, just trying to avoid you going down the wrong rabbit hole...

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

So where are the Radions "map" for comparison???

Look I'm not trying to disprove you, just trying to avoid you going down the wrong rabbit hole...

You posted the radion map for 18” i posted a viparspectra map at 24”. Im not understand what more of a comparison you are wanting. I never thought you were trying to disprove me. You have presented valid arguments but the par map at 24” shows that intensity is not the issue.

Granted i do not run my lights at but where my anemone is in my tank it is getting about 300 par.

 

[oreo54]

Is that par map for 2 lights?
OK let's get off this for now.. Obviously you should have enough intensity and having it shift color in 1 day does point to a spectrum deficiency..

Again though it would be a BIG help to know how the Radion was running when you photographed it.
Or even if that is a normal way of them running it.. Show vs growth spectrum so to speak.

You are short on the 400nm-ish range ............
There is def more florescence in the Radion image.

Things are complicated:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17028187

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Is that par map for 2 lights?
OK let's get off this for now.. Obviously you should have enough intensity and having it shift color in 1 day does point to a spectrum deficiency..

Again though it would be a BIG help to know how the Radion was running when you photographed it.
Or even if that is a normal way of them running it.. Show vs growth spectrum so to speak.

You are short on the 400nm-ish range ............
There is def more florescence in the Radion image.

Things are complicated:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17028187

Things are complicated you are completely right about that one lol.
I just read an article about sanjay’s 500gal. Having the right spectrum is super important.
Ive learned about these blackboxes. Yes they can grow coral but generally speaking they are not going to give you the best looking corals.
I really dont want to spend close to 2 grand on two lights. I need to figure how to get the correct spectrum above my tank. I would love to do it without adding t5’s as well.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Is that par map for 2 lights?
OK let's get off this for now.. Obviously you should have enough intensity and having it shift color in 1 day does point to a spectrum deficiency..

Again though it would be a BIG help to know how the Radion was running when you photographed it.
Or even if that is a normal way of them running it.. Show vs growth spectrum so to speak.

You are short on the 400nm-ish range ............
There is def more florescence in the Radion image.

Things are complicated:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17028187

To answer the first question no that was the par map for one light.
Here is my thought i can redesign the led plate for these black boxes to use high quality led cree/ osram etc. as well as having5-8 channels to achieve a complete spectrum. I Could do all this for leas than the cost of one radion.

 

[oreo54]

Spectrums not that much different till you teak channels.
Since you'd need to add (well should) 5-8 drives, power supply and futz w// the board.. best to star from scratch really.
Cost will escalate..

bit of artistic liscense to crunch the graph.
green is radion plus red bb plus. Ignored lesser differences..

 

[oreo54]

Start w/ a 16x8 heatsink and "glue" all the star diodes you want to it..
https://www.heatsinkusa.com/7-984-new/#
Above is the cheapest and generally the "type" used in black boxes.
xtruded Aluminum Heatsink
Alloy: 6063-T5
Width: 7.984"
Fin Height: .366"
Base: .125"
C/W/3": approximately 1.40
Weight per Inch: .19
Outer Perimeter: 46.290"

$27.20
Power supply $30-ish
5-8 drivers $3-$6 each
controller ($30 (cheapest 5 channel well cheapest best?)-on up)
optics...use bb's or new ones for 45 cents each.. or less.

You could probably gut the bb and use the 12v fan power supplies and fans,
diodes.. well anywhere from 10/$1.00 to $14 each or more (violets/uv)

you could build quite the spectrum test unit..

 

[jda]

So you are agree and saying i need to add full spectrum lighting or just go the t5 route for full spectrum supplementation.

I dont understand why of all the information we have lighting is so confusing in this hobby. At least to me it is.

I am not sure where this thread is heading, but I would add 4x T5s and let them do the heavy lifting with 8-10 hours of run time. Then, mix in your LEDs to "tune" the daily color to your liking. Adding some XHO type RBs to really get that extra pop could be good for that extreme pop.

None of this other stuff about BB vs Radion, or whatever, will matter if they just supplement the T5s.

 

[oreo54]

They want to know how to morph the color back to the orig look..

Also, be aware that the colors morph like crazy under different lights. What was essentially a brown bta under my t5s turned into a sunburst under my husband's chinese leds.......

I bought mine off of diver's den about 2 years ago. It was advertised as an orange bta. But, it's taken on a "rainbow bta" color morph under my g3 radion........

I was reading a thread somewhere you need led's to maintain all the rainbow colors over time (I am not sure how accurate that is) and as Jamie mentioned they will change color with different light set ups.

One of my gbta's was green with tan base when I purchased it from lfs, it is now green with purple base under my T5's. One of my rbta's was a translucent pink under leds at lfs, but in my tank it is opaque pink. My other rbta from DD is a deep red with green accent at base of tentacles, held its red color so far except when I received it it had no signs of green......

Which seems to be hit and miss w/ any light source..

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2646587
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/whos-got-btas-under-leds.90868/

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4/aafeature1

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

I am not sure where this thread is heading, but I would add 4x T5s and let them do the heavy lifting with 8-10 hours of run time. Then, mix in your LEDs to "tune" the daily color to your liking. Adding some XHO type RBs to really get that extra pop could be good for that extreme pop.

None of this other stuff about BB vs Radion, or whatever, will matter if they just supplement the T5s.

You really think adding the T5's will get me where I want to be. I dont necessarily want to morph the BTA's back to what they were I just want that kind of pop on the things I put into my tank. Some of my other corals dont have that pop either.

They want to know how to morph the color back to the orig look..


Which seems to be hit and miss w/ any light source..

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2646587
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/whos-got-btas-under-leds.90868/

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/4/aafeature1

I dont want to morph the color back. I apologize if I have come across that way. My end goal is to have that pop with everything I put in my tank. I just used the BTA as an extreme example.

If T5's will truly get me to where I want to be I will go that route. It is cheaper. To redo my lights how I want them it would cost me a tad over $600 to do both lights. That's using Cree mainly and Lumileds for the UV and violet.
Still $600 for both is great considering that wouldn't even buy me one radion.

 

[jda]

You cannot pop color that is not truly there. You need both.

I will caution you that the desire to pop will wane over time. It seems as people get more experience, they grow tired of the "beer goggles" and just want somebody who looks good all of the time. I would shoot for true color first.

Seems like adding T5s and a ReefBrite would still be less than $600 and probably more of a sure thing.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

You cannot pop color that is not truly there. You need both.

I will caution you that the desire to pop will wane over time. It seems as people get more experience, they grow tired of the "beer goggles" and just want somebody who looks good all of the time. I would shoot for true color first.

Seems like adding T5s and a ReefBrite would still be less than $600 and probably more of a sure thing.

I was told to run 4 bulbs 2 ati blue plus and 2 ati purple plus. sound about right?

 

[jda]

This is up to you. That would be too blue for me where a pair of Blue+ and Coral+ would be more like it.

T5 bulbs have more in common than they do different for the coral, but they do look different to our eyes, so just choose what you like the looks of.

You can also use your T5s to fine tune the color.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

OK I Will start there give it 3 months and report back.

 

[oreo54]

Remeber.. you are just really doubling "PAR"... spectrum has little to do w/ it..
But different bulb "tones" do make things look different..

You could easily just add Orphek "bars"....

sounds like I like LED's huh..

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

Remeber.. you are just really doubling "PAR"... spectrum has little to do w/ it..
But different bulb "tones" do make things look different..

You could easily just add Orphek "bars"....

sounds like I like LED's huh..

I would have to halfway disagree with you here. its not just par. Both the ATI blue plus and the ATI purple, or even the coral plus, Will give me spectrum I do not have. The blue provides a spike right around 400nm the purple plus give me the same spike at 400nm but also at ~550nm and 620ish nm. The coral plus changes a bit. it moves the 550nm spike to more of a 530nm spike.

 

[oreo54]

Your still going to b short around 500nm..