Coral Coloration LEDS vs MH vs T5

leepink23 · Jul 3, 2019

Jonathan Troutt said:
@oreo5457 @jda

So im going to go pick up the 8 bulb t5 fixture today. Its free so cant beat that.
A question though. Which would be better

My black boxes i have with the orphek bars....which bar?

The t5 fixture with a couple bulbs replaced with orphek bars. So like 6 t5 bulbs 2 orphek?

Or my black boxes with the t5 fixture

I have 2 of the Orphek blue + 48 inch attached to my halides for night time pop. Really like them, a little to much green but still very happy.

taricha · Jul 3, 2019

Jonathan Troutt said:
I dont want to morph the color back. I apologize if I have come across that way. My end goal is to have that pop with everything I put in my tank. I just used the BTA as an extreme example.

Too bad! I really wanted to know what light wavelength difference accounted for the color shift in those two pics one day apart!

(If you do decide to experiment, it might be interesting to turn off or cover up your LEDs starting with white, then red, then up the spectrum from green to blue to Violet/uv.)

If not, maybe Dana will indulge us if he has that anemone handy. [emoji846]

Jonathan Troutt · Jul 3, 2019

taricha said:
Too bad! I really wanted to know what light wavelength difference accounted for the color shift in those two pics one day apart!

(If you do decide to experiment, it might be interesting to turn off or cover up your LEDs starting with white, then red, then up the spectrum from green to blue to Violet/uv.)

If not, maybe Dana will indulge us if he has that anemone handy. [emoji846]

Dont get me wrong i wouldnt mind if it went back to that but thats not my end goal.
I am going to start with t5’s and my leds. If that work then so be it. If it doesnt i will go the route of orphek bars.
That being said i may still go the route of orphek bars just run them with the t5’s. I boughts a 75 gal with stand and canopy today for 200. So everything will be getting moved within the next 3 or 4 weeks.

All this messing with my lights has caused issues. My torch coral looks like it is starting to bleach and so does my one nem....

naterealbig · Jul 3, 2019

oreo5457 said:
Cool link..
What data is available on this site?

Probably can't get 85% of that stuff anymore..

Yes, that's true, but there was testing done for Radiums, Ushio, and a couple other bulbs that are still manufactured. I might have some screen shots of the ones I'm looking for - just got to dig around.

@jda - I'd also be willing to donate on a regular basis. Aside from the plots, there was a wealth of information on the general topic of lighting - all science based.

Definitely was a cool site. I sent an email to reefs.com asking about it. If I manage to find a link, I'll post it.

oreo54 · Jul 4, 2019

Blackice615 · Jul 4, 2019

Great information here that I've been debating. My corals lost that pop and illuminating factor like the blues and purples found in Garf Bonsais.

I run AB+ on 3 regular G4 Radions.

White channel at 65%, red and greens are at 15%. Reading this article, should I increase the green channel and reduce the white channel with Hope's of regaining the illuminating and color pop?

Jonathan Troutt · Jul 4, 2019

@oreo5457 @jda

Hey guys so i figured i would update you on my plans.

This 8 bulb t5 fixture is the perfect size for a 75 gallon tank. Fits right over it. And boy does is put out some light. Currently has 6500k bulbs in it.

Anyway i am going to get my 75 set up in the next couple of weeks. At that time the black boxes are going to go bye bye. I am going to start off running only t5’s.

In a month or so after getting it running i start with one of the orphek bars one of the blue and purple ones. If its not enough i will get an additional one basically going to replace bulbs with the bars.

The reason for this instead of mounting my black boxes in them is because there is not room in the fixture. I would have to totally destroy the fixture to get the black boxes in it.

So yeah there ya go. This may be coincidence but last night after i got the fixture i set it on top of my 40breeder just to see what 6500k looks like. Turn on all 8 bulbs and my other anemone i have that have been a problem child immediately responded by stretching out from under the rock its under and stretched out fully
Illuminated.

It has not done that with my leds. I found that very peculiar.

jda · Jul 4, 2019

Why peculiar? Surely people have told you that the spectrum from the LEDs are not as good as from mercury based sources. The only people who will tell you otherwise have not seen enough to know better... they are new, or just reef on message boards without much real tank experience. All of this said, it could just be a coincidence, but a few more days of positive response could seal it for you.

A free ATI 8 bulb is a nice gift indeed. Well done.

6500k bulbs are good spectrum, but likely too yellow for illumination. I like them, but I balance them with a True Actinic also. I use GE 6500k. Both of these will have spectrum not found en masse with other bulbs so I like to use them. For an 8 bulbs, 2x 6500k, 2x True Actinc and the remaining 4 with a mixture of Blue Plus or Coral Plus (or the Giesemann or Hamilton equivalent) is what I like to go with. I am using just MH over my displays now, but I do have a 4x ATI over a frag tank with 2x 6500k and 2x Actinic and the colors and growth are really good.

Jonathan Troutt · Jul 4, 2019

jda said:
Why peculiar? Surely people have told you that the spectrum from the LEDs are not as good as from mercury based sources. The only people who will tell you otherwise have not seen enough to know better... they are new, or just reef on message boards without much real tank experience. All of this said, it could just be a coincidence, but a few more days of positive response could seal it for you.

A free ATI 8 bulb is a nice gift indeed. Well done.

6500k bulbs are good spectrum, but likely too yellow for illumination. I like them, but I balance them with a True Actinic also. I use GE 6500k. Both of these will have spectrum not found en masse with other bulbs so I like to use them. For an 8 bulbs, 2x 6500k, 2x True Actinc and the remaining 4 with a mixture of Blue Plus or Coral Plus (or the Giesemann or Hamilton equivalent) is what I like to go with. I am using just MH over my displays now, but I do have a 4x ATI over a frag tank with 2x 6500k and 2x Actinic and the colors and growth are really good.

To be honest with you ive never been told that the spectrum from leds is not as good until just recently. Ive always been told LED’s are the best thing since sliced bread and that there is no reason to ever use anything else.
So i made purchasing decisions based on that. Im glad i know better now and i cannot wait to see what results from providing the correct spectrums.
I would think something should be stickied in this forum detailing this information. All the times I’ve asked about why the pop is not there in my tank this is first time spectrum has come up.
I really appreciate the knowledge provided by this forum. Ive always been a huge defender of black box leds as a complete package. i now feel like a complete ******* for pushing false information. Also i am dumbfounded about why it took me so long to learn this, extremely important information.

I would like to do whatever i can to prevent the next person from being misinformed and wasting the amount of money ive wasted.

jda · Jul 4, 2019

Be sure and use the ATI for a few months and make up your mind totally. There are some reasons to use LED like if you want to constantly play with spectrum or put on thunderstorms for people. You might decide in the end that you really liked your black boxes, but you also might now once you see what other stuff can do. I would wait for more than a few days to judge.

You see a lot of this progressions... LED only to start, then to LED with T5 supplements, then T5s with LED supplements. Once folks see what adding a few T5s to their LEDs can do, they start to wonder what more of them can do... then they have to decide if the coral is more important or their form factor (which really does matter) and apps.

oreo54 · Jul 4, 2019

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4149485/
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature
http://biopublisher.ca/index.php/ija/article/html/3069/
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2018/4/aafeature
https://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ReefWholesale_CoralLab.pdf

. Replicated coral fragments were obtained from two mother colonies and were exposed to the four types of light spectrum for a period of 30 days. At the end of the experiment period, the results showed 100% of survival in coral fragments, and specific growth rate (SGR) of 0,055 ± 0,09%/day in control group and 0,091 ± 0,019 %/day, 0,210 ± 0,031%/day and 0,380 ± 0,245%/day in, white, blue and red light, respectively. Moreover, in all treatments at end of experiment the zooxanthellae density was ±, ± and ± for white, blue and red light spectrum, respectively showing that all light promotes conditions for zooxanthellae growth. The results also showed a positive role of use a specific light spectrum in coral growth, namely blue and red spectrum. The use of light with specific light spectrum that increasing the growth and health of corals will minimizing the production costs, increasing the feasibility of ex situ production of ornamental corals and this study identify the best LED`s light spectrum for the growth of the leather coral Sarcophyton spp.

Think you are going a bit overboard there..

oreo54 · Jul 4, 2019

jda said:
Be sure and use the ATI for a few months and make up your mind totally. There are some reasons to use LED like if you want to constantly play with spectrum or put on thunderstorms for people. You might decide in the end that you really liked your black boxes, but you also might now once you see what other stuff can do. I would wait for more than a few days to judge.

You see a lot of this progressions... LED only to start, then to LED with T5 supplements, then T5s with LED supplements. Once folks see what adding a few T5s to their LEDs can do, they start to wonder what more of them can do... then they have to decide if the coral is more important or their form factor (which really does matter) and apps.

Or mh t5 ect ect..

Jonathan Troutt · Jul 4, 2019

oreo5457 said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4149485/
http://biopublisher.ca/index.php/ija/article/html/3069/
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2018/4/aafeature
https://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ReefWholesale_CoralLab.pdf

Think you are going a bit overboard there..

So this is saying that blue and reds showed the most growth in these studies correct?

jda · Jul 4, 2019

Think so? Why don't you get a tank and a 4-5 (or 10) years of experience and let me know. I don't really feel that your experience as an internet reader and link poster makes you all too qualified for this, as we have discussed many times before.

Until then, how about not posting any "findings" or "studies" written and published by the people who make the LED panels.

Thanks for the other links on Leather corals which used to be grown under 100w incandescent screw-in light bulbs when I was getting into the hobby many years ago... if you had experience at all, you would know that keeping leather corals is not like keeping other types of coral.

I never know if you are trying to purposefully mislead (outside of LED build threads where your stuff seems really good), or if you just don't know what you are talking about.

jda · Jul 4, 2019

JT - if you are going to dabble in T5s, then Ed might be a good read. He is T5 only and a great resource for like minded folks and is truly at the top of his class:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/big-e-rimless-80g-sps.206607/

Those studies were on leather corals. Unless you are going to focus on leathers, read them with a grain of salt. These are easier to grow than button polyps.

Jonathan Troutt · Jul 4, 2019

jda said:
JT - if you are going to dabble in T5s, then Ed might be a good read. He is T5 only and a great resource for like minded folks and is truly at the top of his class:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/big-e-rimless-80g-sps.206607/

Those studies were on leather corals. Unless you are going to focus on leathers, read them with a grain of salt. These are easier to grow than button polyps.

I really appreciate your knowledge and the fact you share it. I will for sure go through the linked thread. I am not interested in playing with spectrum or thunderstorms to be honest. I want to provide the best spectrum that i can to my inhabitants that allows for the best growth and best coloration. Once that is achieved i want to leave it alone and revel in the magnificence.

I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Like i said ive always been under the impression that leds were the replacement for t5’s and MH. I understand i am wrong.

I am looking forward to this new experience and getting to learn about t5’s and what they can do.

oreo54 · Jul 4, 2019

jda said:
Think so? Why don't you get a tank and a 4-5 (or 10) years of experience and let me know. I don't really feel that your experience as an internet reader and link poster makes you all too qualified for this, as we have discussed many times before.

Until then, how about not posting any "findings" or "studies" written and published by the people who make the LED panels.

Thanks for the other links on Leather corals which used to be grown under 100w incandescent screw-in light bulbs when I was getting into the hobby many years ago... if you had experience at all, you would know that keeping leather corals is not like keeping other types of coral.

I never know if you are trying to purposefully mislead (outside of LED build threads where your stuff seems really good), or if you just don't know what you are talking about.

One doesn't need to be in WWII to "debate" strategy....besides one needs theorist/skeptics to keep dogma from settling in..
Links I posted were just common ones and AFAICT Mr Riddle is beholden to no-one..

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/5/aafeature
Lights just a tool and as I've said before .. there are no "magic photons" emitted from any source..
Most differences are more application issues than source..

future:
https://global.kyocera.com/news-archive/2018/0702_leda.html

At Shizuoka University, we had developed an experiment to test the abundance of zooxanthellae and their photosynthetic pigments (chlorophyll a and peridinin) in aquariums at 24℃, to test the effect of light on coral growth using Kyocera's Natural White's LEDs (KNW) and a conventional LED (CLED) at 400 µm cm-2 sec-1. The experiment was conducted for 2 months using two coral species, Montipora digitata and Acropora spp. from Okinawa. Results showed that corals incubated under KNW kept their original color intact against corals under CLED that appeared pale after 2 months. Zooxanthellae density increased 32 to 47%, Chl-a 17 to 44 % and peridinin 26 to 125% in KNW treatments when compared to CLED treatments. Results clearly showed that, due to its similarity to the natural sunlight, the KNW lamp is highly suitable for growing corals during a long period of time. It is also expected that, using KNW, new results in the study of coral physiological responses and coral bleaching will be obtained.”

That the black boxes weren't good enough for the op doesn't mean you throw the whole tech out the window..

One was a Sky Blue, the other was a mix of UV and blue LEDs, while the third was a custom-built infrared for lab work. I'm tied up for the rest of the week, but can look at intensity/mixing sometime next week if you can wait. But honestly, I don't see any reason to custom build these fixtures unless you have some specific goal in mind, such as fluorescent protein excitation. All the work I've done suggests spectrum doesn't make a significant difference in coral growth rates (Porites lobata, anyway) as the spectra offered by companies is almost always heavy in the blue portion with some warmer colors thrown in for visual appeal.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/orphek-custom-led-combination.407179/

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/aafeature

Spectrum
The results above demonstrate that different coral species exhibit different growth rates under the two light spectra provided. Interestingly, a positive effect of irradiance on the growth of Stylophora pistillata was only found for the blue-dominant LED spectrum. Under a more balanced LEP spectrum, containing more red and less blue light, S. pistillata already maximized its growth at the lowest irradiance. It is unclear why this occurred, but it may be related to the photosynthetic pigment complement of the specimens used, which could be chromatically adapted to shallow-water conditions where red light is abundant. Indeed, these corals were collected from shallow water in Eilat, Israel. In the same way, chromatic adaptation of the symbiotic zooxanthellae of Acropora millepora to a high-red spectrum may explain why this species grew faster under LEP at the lowest irradiance applied.

Pocillopora damicornis showed negative growth rates under all LED treatments, which was a result of tissue necrosis. It is unclear why this occurred, but it may have been due to limiting water flow rate. As only moderate water flow rates were measured in the systems (below 10 cm s-1), an accumulation of photosynthetic oxygen and heat within the tissue may have resulted in mortality (Fabricius 2006; Mass et al. 2010a). It is known that highly energetic blue light stimulates photosynthesis in zooxanthellae most efficiently (Halldal 1969), which may require higher water flow rates to remove excess oxygen and heat from coral tissue. It is however unclear why the other species in this study did not show such an adverse effect to the high blue LED spectrum.

Montipora aequituberculata exhibited highest growth rates under LED at low irradiance, which contrasts with the results of other species. In a similar way to S. pistillata and A. millepora, this species may be chromatically adapted to a high blue spectrum, which is found in the wild at depths below approximately 10 meters.

Acrofiend · Jul 4, 2019

I guess I’ll just start it.
MH>T5>LED

Mhart032 · Jul 4, 2019

I run Radions, I like them just fine for now. I like the look of them and the way they can mount without a big fixture over the tank, that being said... There are a ton of those that love LEDs and a ton that love MH T5 combos. Some that love t5s. I like the shimmer of the MH first and foremost. But for color and making corals pop the T5s hands down are in my opinion the best. Tank a look at the tank of the month from @FarmerTy it's even more spectacular in person, The colors his sps and nems have are just jaw dropping amazing. His results are incredible.