Orphek Custom LED Combination

Discussion in 'Aquarium Lighting By Dana Riddle' started by pluikens, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    I'm working with @James Emory (I believe) to pick out a custom arrangement of LEDs for two of their Orphek )R 120 light bars. I'm looking for something around the 25K look, the light bars will be over my frag tank and the health of the corals is very important.

    Each light bar has 36 - 3 watt LEDs. The available LED colors are:
    6300K
    12,000K
    410
    430
    460
    490
    595
    630
    660
    730

    Since the light has no dimming, I want to try to achieve the 25K with the mix of LEDs. Below is the combination of LEDs that I think I've settled on but I'd like opinions on it before placing the order.

    12000K - 5
    660nm - 2
    595nm - 1
    490nm - 4
    460nm - 13
    430nm - 6
    410nm - 5

    So what are everyone's thoughts? Thanks!
     

  2. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    That that will be WAY beyond 25000K.

    Used 8000k for 6500k since "generic" 6500k's weren't available.
    at worst.. slightly higer K than predicted.. BTW the below _K is really close to being on scale.

    Only difference is one "Blue" and you are back on track.. ;)
    http://spectra.1023world.net/


    skip the amber...one won't do much..
    Only 34 diodes..Adding 2 (to make 36) whites @6500k brings it down to approx 18000K.. Add 2 12000K
    Playing w/ the 6300/12000k ratio should tailor it to what you are "wanting"...

    KEEP the "core"
    LED UV (410nm) [120°] x3
    LED Violet (430nm) [120°] x3
    LED Blue (460nm) [120°] x2
    LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x4
    LED Red (630nm) [120°] x2
    LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x2

    16

    change the "white" 20 to suite 6300/12000K
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  3. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    @oreo5457 Thank you for the link. I was really wishing there was a tool like this and I now have something to mess around with all day! What if 25k isn't my goal and what I really want is something like SPS AB+ or similar which would be better for the corals? It doesn't bother me if the tank is just bright blue as long as the spectrum is best for the corals.

    If I'm using the tool right, below is my original mix:
    or_custom.JPG

    And here's 4x ATI blue plus with 1x aquaBlue Special:
    sps_abplus.JPG

    Since I can, I think the additional 430 will be helpful since I don't have the Flux around 450. Should I lose the one 595 and two 660s and add three more 490s? Along with that, should I change the 12000K to 6300K (represented as 8000K below)? Here's what that looks like.
    less_red_more_490.JPG

    Thanks again!
     
  4. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    @Dana Riddle I saw in a post of yours once that "UV-A to green, and some red, are bandwidths critical to zooxanthellate photosynthesis." Would it be disadvantageous to remove the one 595 and two 660s for three more 490s like in the bottom graph? Would I still get enough reds and greens from the five 6300K whites? Thanks!
     
  5. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    I've got this "thing" about using only 1-2 diodes across large bars.. personally no "color" under 3-4 would be acceptable "to me" over 36-48" bar..
    the role of "red" is controversial to begin w/ so that makes it even more difficult..

    If you do consider replacing or minimizing the 660nm best (persona opinion) to use the 6300k's in their place..
    Flattens the est. spectrum in the non-blue vis range..

    Same w/ cyan.. under-utilized w/ LEDs so effects are ????

    use 4 8000k's in their place and see..
     
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  6. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    It is the dosage of red light (that is, intensity over a period of time - hours) that regulates zooxanthellae density/chlorophyll content. As an analogy, we need a little copper in our diet, but too much is deleterious. Now, to your question. I think removing the 595nm LED would be OK since it is not highly absorbed by the Peridinin-Chlorophyll Protein - replace it with a blue-green LED (505-515nm.) Keep the 660nm LEDs - their output can be used by Photosystem I's P-700 and can prevent a damaging bottleneck between PSII and PSI but I wouldn't run them at full strength. When experimenting, watch your corals closely for any negative effects, especially those with thin skins such as many of the SPS corals.
     
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  7. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, the lights are not dimmable so I will plan to remove the 595 and keep one of the 660s. It will be on one end of the bar and since I'm running two matching bars I will run one backwards so there's a single 660 over each half of the tank. Orphek is building the light for me so I can only choose between the few wavelengths available and no 505-515nm is available.

    Based on the feedback I'm now thinking of the below combination:
    6300K - 5
    660nm - 1
    490nm - 8
    460nm - 12
    430nm - 5
    410nm - 5

    1425_spectrum.JPG

    Does this seem adequate for meeting corals needs? Mostly LPS and SPS but anything from zoas, acans, cyphastrea, and acropora. Am I putting too much into the 410 and 430nm where it would be more useful at 460 or 490nm?

    Or maybe an easier question, which of the two graphs in this post looks better for coral health and growth?

    1456_spectrum.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  8. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Theoretically, the first chart appears best for photosynthesis and coloration, although there weren't any statistically significant differences in Porites corals' growth rates under LED with major differences in spectral qualities in experiments I did when in Hawaii. I'll have to look into the reasoning for the markers for fluorescent and chromoproteins in the charts and I'd feel better if the charts showed chlorophylls a and c2.
     
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  9. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Can you tell me what about that chart makes it appear better so that I know what I'm looking for? Is it the closer matching to the blue dashed line or just the increased area between 400-440nm? Is it something entirely different you're seeing?
     
  10. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Here's the reasoning behind my statement - the absorption characteristics of the main photopigment complex in Symbiodinium - the Peridinin-Chlorophyll Protein. Also, the violet/blue bandwidths are best for showcasing many of the fluorescent proteins (not so much for the non-fluorescent chromoproteins.)
    upload_2018-6-18_17-5-29.png
     
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  11. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Triangles are "relative" so keep that in mind..
    Trying for a more "complete" spectrum.. (use
    * MIXING LIST
    ----------------------------------------
    LED UV (410nm) [120°] x5
    LED Violet (430nm) [120°] x5
    LED Blue (460nm) [120°] x9
    LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x3
    LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x2
    LED CoolWhite (8000K) [120°] x12 (8@6300k, 4@12000k)

    orphek.png

    People need to be less afraid of "not blue".. most T5's and MH's have plenty of "not blue" no matter how blue that are (exceptions apply of course). Personally why LED' "lag" other sources.
    Of course theoretical... ;)

    Amber was prob for the peak in "c" but the whites dip into the 625-650 enough.
    and of course the blue peak.
    KEEP in mind inv. diodes that they use will differ from any theoretical spectrum..
    Depends on the ind. efficiencies..

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  12. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    What does PSC and PPC stand for? The absorption of chlorophyll is altered when combined with peridinin, so examination of individual photopigments *might* not tell the whole story.
    I received 3 strip lights from Orphek today, so I now have a better understanding of how light is mixed when using these. I don't think use of multiple red LEDs will cause any issues as long as they are separated.

     
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  13. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    Is it the OR light bars in their standard spectrums that you got? If so, what do you think of just combining two of those rather than going custom? Another option I have is to just buy two of their standard spectrums like a reef day light and blue sky. I'm looking at 60 degree lenses though so I don't know how well they'll mix offer a 24 inch wide tank at 10-14 inches above the surface. I'm used to puck style LED lights, not light bars. Thanks!
     
  14. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Assume carotenoids..
     
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  15. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    One was a Sky Blue, the other was a mix of UV and blue LEDs, while the third was a custom-built infrared for lab work. I'm tied up for the rest of the week, but can look at intensity/mixing sometime next week if you can wait. But honestly, I don't see any reason to custom build these fixtures unless you have some specific goal in mind, such as fluorescent protein excitation. All the work I've done suggests spectrum doesn't make a significant difference in coral growth rates (Porites lobata, anyway) as the spectra offered by companies is almost always heavy in the blue portion with some warmer colors thrown in for visual appeal.
     
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  16. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Re: PSC and PPC, looks like you're right about the carotenoids as far as I can tell. PSC = Partially Saturated Canthaxanthin and PPC = Photo-Protective Carotenoid. We can disregard PSC, as canthaxanthin isn't found in zooxanthellae. As for PPC, the absorption spectrum might be for beta-beta-carotene - I'd have to dig out Shirley Jeffries' work to be sure - which has been noted to be present in Symbiodinium. Fucoxanthin has also be reported as a minor element, although its function was not described.
     
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  17. oreo5457

    oreo5457 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry..just grabbed a random "pretty"' chart..;)
    https://www.seas.ucla.edu/~pilon/photobioIntro.html

     
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  18. pluikens

    pluikens Valuable Member Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor

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    @Dana Riddle I don't want to take up any more of your time. I'm nervous about the colors mixing between the front and back of the tank if I get one sky blue and one reef daylight so I'd rather get custom mixes which are almost an average of the two as far as LED count goes. Thank you for your help so far!

    @oreo5457 I tried to recreate something like your more "complete" spectrum with two AI Prime HDs over a 3 foot tank and I'll admit I'm afraid of "not blue". On the Prime HDs, I like 100% UV, Violet, Royal, Blue, Green, and Red, and 10% or less Cool White. This was pretty blue but if Dana says "spectrum doesn't make a significant difference in coral growth rates" then I think I'll go with:

    LED UV (410nm) [120°] x4
    LED Violet (430nm) [120°] x5
    LED Blue (460nm) [120°] x15
    LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x7
    LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x2
    LED CoolWhite (8000K) [120°] x3 (2@6300k, 1@12000k)

    6-18-21-23.jpeg
     
  19. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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  20. Dana Riddle

    Dana Riddle Valuable Member Staff Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Article Contributor Expert Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    This might be of interest:
    https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/4/corals
    Although the 'custom' light produced the highest growth rates, they were not statistically significant.
     
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